#Interview mit Pat Parelli: Vom Rodeo-Cowboy zur Horsemanship-Legende

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:07-00:00:37]
If every horse's mother could watch her foal get its first ride, get all of its training, would she be smiling and saying, oh, look at my son, look at the nice process he's going through. The teachers are so nice to my son and my daughter. Or would they be cringing? When I play with a horse, I go, if your mom is watching, I promise you I'm going to put a smile on her face. Herzlich willkommen beim WeHorse Podcast mit Christian Kröber.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:38-00:02:42]
Vor wenigen Wochen auf der Equitana, der Weltmesse des Pferdesports in Essen, bin ich durch Zufall in Pat Parelli gelaufen. Und wir haben uns viele Jahre nicht gesehen und haben dann an Ort und Stelle beschlossen, hey, lass mal einen Podcast machen. Das ist heute rausgekommen. Pat Parelli ist einer der Pioniere des Horsemanship. Er selber hat seine eigene Ausbildungsmethode, das Pat Pirelli Natural Horsemanship, gegründet, das auf Kommunikation, Verständnis und Psychologie basiert. Das von über einer Million Menschen in 76 Ländern schon genutzt wurde. Man kann zu seiner Ausbildungsmethode stehen, wie man möchte. Ich weiß, es gibt auch viele Kritiker davon. Nichtsdestotrotz ist er wirklich, wie ich finde, eine inspirierende Person. Sein Blick auf die Dinge, sein Blick auf die Pferdewelt ist auf jeden Fall beachtenswert. Und wir machen jetzt einen kleinen Deep Dive. Das Ganze ist auf Englisch. Und ich glaube, das bringt auch am authentischsten rüber, was Pat Parelli denkt und fühlt. Und ich hoffe, ihr könnt einiges daraus mitnehmen. Im Übrigen ist inzwischen die Nominierungsphase eröffnet für den WeHouse Courage Award 2025. Wir möchten Menschen auszeichnen, die mit Mut und Engagement hohe Standards im Umgang und in der Ausbildung mit Pferden fördern und das Ganze auch verbreiten. Brücken bauen, anstatt Gräben zu vertiefen. Das ist das große Thema unseres Awards in diesem Jahr. Schaut vorbei unter www.wehorse.com. Da ist ein einfaches Formular, das ihr ausfüllen müsst. Das Ganze ist auch anonym möglich. Und dann geht eure Nominierung raus zum Wehorse Courage Award 2025, der im Übrigen verliehen wird am 1. Juni in Hamburg. Pat, welcome to the show.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:43-00:02:43]
Thank you, Christian.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:44-00:03:07]
Great to have you, finally, finally here on our podcast. You are one of the leading examples and one of the most influential people in the horse world, especially when it comes to horsemanship. What is your original inspiration to become a trainer and to create natural horsemanship what it is today?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:03:07-00:03:23]
Thanks. That's a good question. Well, I think, you know, kind of interestingly enough, when people come to my website, say, they always ask three questions. Who is Pat Pirelli really? Okay. Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:03:23-00:03:25]
Number one. We have time to find out now.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:03:25-00:04:42]
Yeah, we will find out. It's fine. Number two, why is he trying to sell me a program rather than a video or a clinic? Because, you know, everybody thinks he's a clinician. You know, this is what he's going to try to get me to do or sell me a video on my problem or what I want, right? And number three, now that I'm convinced that this is who Pat Purley really is and that's why I should want to study with him, And why I realize now the program is how do I do the program? Okay. Those are the three questions that everybody basically has in their mind, you know, when they come there. And so I think the thing that I probably try to get people to realize is that number one is I'm a real horse lover. And I don't think a lot of trainers really love horseback. I take my vacations with horses. You know what I mean? On horseback. On horseback. Or my hobbies, if I go, you know, like if I go to cutting competition or rain cow horse competition or ranch riding competition, I do it because that's what I do for fun. You know, I go roping. You know what I mean? I don't go on a boat.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:43-00:04:44]
You're a real cowboy.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:04:44-00:04:58]
Yeah. And so that's probably the next thing is I'm a real cowboy. First of all, I... I worked on a ranch in Nevada when I was 12 years old. It was half a million acres. It was 50 miles wide and 100 miles long.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:59-00:05:01]
And on horseback all day.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:05:01-00:06:16]
Yeah, all summer. And I was a rodeo cowboy. When I was 16, 17, I went to a little rodeo school. And I got on this bucking horse, and I rode it, and the pickup man said to me, wow, how long have you been doing this? And I said, that was my first time. He said, come here. And he introduced me to Johnny Hawkins, who was the world champion, and he was the first man inducted in the Hall of Fame. So we had a little rodeo school. So he coached me for about 200 horses, and he would put me on six that he knew I could ride and one that he was pretty sure I couldn't. Give me a little humble pie. Mm-hmm. Anyway, I won the first three rodeos I went to. I was the Rookie of the Year in 1972, and I had a 14-year bronc riding career. So I've been a rodeo cowboy. I've worked on big ranches. I've owned over 5,000 head of cattle myself. I just sold a 1,000-acre ranch in Colorado. And so I'm a horse lover, but I'm also a cowboy. But altogether, I think the other thing is that I'm a success coach. I love the smell of success.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:06:17-00:06:19]
I love coaching. For the horse and the rider.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:06:19-00:07:11]
Yes. For either one. If a horse, like when I go home, there's a horse that was at my horse psychology seminar summit last weekend. And this horse really has trouble with driving. human environment, the saddle with, you know, different things and panics and stuff. And I know I'll smell success with that horse. It's going to probably take me three or four months with my program and what we'll do with him and for him. But with people, I love it when I can take somebody that's good and get them to be great and someone that's great to be greater and somebody that's, you know, whatever their talents are, And some people just want to be safe and have fun, and other people want to be competitive, and other people want to be professional. So I love coaching people.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:12-00:07:16]
When did you first realize that you're going to be a very, very good trainer?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:20-00:07:26]
Back in 1975, I started the American Mule Association. I was the founding president.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:26-00:07:28]
The Mule Association, okay.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:28-00:07:32]
Mule Association. I had this thing. I thought, if I could learn to train mules.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:34-00:07:35]
That is easy to train horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:37-00:10:38]
You got it. And that's exactly what happened. I trained over 300 mules. I had 12 world champions. I had a mule named Thumper. I showed her at the – competed on her at the – the Snafflebit Futurity World Championships, she had the third highest reigning mark out of 375 horses. I got hate mail. The trainers hated it because their owners got mad at them because a mule outscored them. I got really good with it. You must treat a mule like you should treat a horse. With love, language, leadership, equal doses. Communication, understanding, and psychology, not mechanics, fear, and intimidation. And so many horses get trained mechanically, and they're very obedient, but they've lost their soul. So really the mule thing is what started it, and then all of a sudden I started finding horses to be easy. And then I earned a scholarship to train under one of the greatest... western horsemen in the world troy henry and troy henry we were we were the first people to ship um quarter horses to germany oh really yeah we were shipping in the late 70s i suppose around that no no no uh early 70s early 70s and he uh through a guy named bill verdugo We were shipping horses here, Brazil, and Australia, quarter horses, and about 50 horses a year all total. And some of the greatest Western trainers all worked for Mr. Henry at one time or another. So I had five years with him, and he passed away. And I realized, first of all, my rodeo career, I had a 98% ride record over 14 years. And that's like 3,000 rodeos. So it came easy to me. And then I kept studying all the... The clowns would have an act with a dog or with a donkey or with a mule or with a horse or with a chimpanzee. I kept learning. Teach me, how did you do that? I started learning about animal training. When I had a rodeo school in the early 70s, I ended up with three world champions. I found out that I love teaching animals. But here's the fun, funnest story, how I found out that I was really good at teaching. So I was going to imagine now I'm 19 or 20 years old and in a community in the East Bay Area, which was very rural at that time. All of a sudden, one of their young men became a famous rodeo star. So, you know, everybody's, you know...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:10:39-00:10:39]
Hyped.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:10:39-00:11:59]
Yeah, hype's there, right? Well, when I first started in junior rodeos, I got bucked off 20 times in a row before I rode the first one. Really? Yeah, they have cows and steers and stuff like that, right? Because nobody gave me any prep, any teaching, right? So my... cousin donnie he comes his uncle pat he said um is it is it possible for you to help me i'm gonna go on the livermore junior rodeo which is a very big one by the way like 300 kids gonna get on these bucking animals right I said, yeah. So I took a little Shetland pony and I got the rope for him to put his hand in. I showed him all the different things to do. And then I would lunge the pony around in a circle and turn it back and jerk, you know, and taught him to stay on. Then I started putting hay bales, so like four hay bales, so that the pony had to jump over the bales so he could feel what the jump was going to feel like. And then I put hay bales over here in a circle. So he had to jump over these hay bales, then those hay, and then finally four. So it was very much like riding in a bucket. And I'd jerk it and turn it the other way and go... Guess what? My cousin Donnie not only stayed on his first bucking animal, he won first out of 300. Because I made it so... I could see the process...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:59-00:12:01]
A step-by-step approach to it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:12:01-00:12:53]
Yes. I could see what I didn't get. When I can get something, then I go, how can I make that simpler? How can I get somebody else to do that quicker? So... That's when I learned – Mr. Henry helped me become really good with really knowing horse psychology but also applied to sports, how to get horses to slide farther, how to get horses to spin faster, how to get horses to do lead changes better, how to get – that was what we were into then. I was a performance horse trainer. And then after he passed away, I found out by giving the seminar that what I really – love doing was helping regular people get extraordinary results. So instead of trying to be the superstar in the Western sports, I decided to go to the people and just the person that leisure rider or anybody that wanted help with their horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:12:53-00:12:54]
And I found out what I'm called normal rider.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:12:54-00:13:33]
Yeah. And what I found out was, is that everybody's been told, just catch them any way you can kick them to go, pull them to stop and use the reins to turn. And I've been down 43 years teaching people, uh, The connection is king. You've got to get your horse to want to be with you, come to you and follow you, just like your dog. Number two, there's preparations we can do on the ground to make sure it's safe and even achieve excellence. The game's on the ground. And then don't kick them to go. Just bring your energy up. Don't pull them to stop. Just relax and lift a little. And don't lean to turn. Push your horse around. So 43 years, I've been teaching people five things not to do.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:13:34-00:13:39]
But eventually, and you just mentioned it, it is teaching people and then teaching horses, right?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:13:41-00:13:44]
I teach people how to train their horse. That's what I really do.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:13:45-00:13:56]
And eventually, you try to break down these different problems into separate smaller pieces and then tackle it like you did with the haystacks?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:13:56-00:15:33]
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so, first of all, there's, okay, if you wanted to learn a musical instrument, like I play guitar, and one of the things I do is I've actually kind of done the same thing with guitar playing. I'm not a great guitar player, but I can play pretty good, you know. Two nights ago at the party, I played for two hours. Okay, but so, like, for example, I go and I go, I'm going to show you something in the next hour that if somebody would have showed me this when I started playing, playing guitar, I would be way better by now. You know, like this little ding, ding, ding, that's string number one. It's getting lower. They're named 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. So when someone says to you, put this finger on the second fret on string number 3, you know where to go. And then each one of the strings has a letter. The first one is E, the second one is B, the third one is G, the next one is D, A, and E again. And then I show them how each note goes down the thing. So I just show them a couple of things And I had a guy one time I taught him to play guitar. Six months later, he had his own professional band. Things like that. It's just because a lot of people are really good at something, but that doesn't make them a good teacher. As a matter of fact, oftentimes people that are super talented can't understand why you and I just can't do it. Okay? And so... So there's only two kinds of people in the world, simplifiers and complicators, and complicators think that simplifiers are complicated.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:15:34-00:15:34]
Exactly.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:15:36-00:15:36]
Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:15:36-00:15:38]
That's actually a good one, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:15:39-00:16:14]
So somewhere in there, just my whole North Star has been horses and helping people in the horse industry, and then finally I found my niche, and then I realized that that every word that came out of my mouth was either savvy or natural. And savvy means that you have like a second nature. You know? It's in an instinctual level. And so what I try to get people to do is Like people ask me questions. I got all the answers tattooed on the inside of my eyelids.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:14-00:16:16]
It's coming very naturally.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:17-00:16:34]
Oh, yeah. And anybody who's good at something, mechanic or whatever, they just, oh, yeah, you know what to do. Like I see you guys with these computers. Oh, yeah, you know, you just. It's daily work. Yeah, I can't even. I got a computer one time, and I looked for the on button. It said no. It said it's upside down. It still says no.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:35-00:16:39]
But you could actually still break down the problem into those smaller pieces.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:39-00:16:44]
I'm sure. Well, I'm getting, I can even, I'm starting to learn to get around this silly iPhone.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:44-00:16:46]
You look very proficient with the iPhone, though.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:16:46-00:16:58]
Fairly. I mean, to some extent, but it's because, so I'm a simplifier, and I love simplifying things for people, and I love the look on people's faces when they go, I would have never thought of that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:60-00:17:00]
Werbung.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:01-00:17:10]
Horses and dreams meets the Netherlands. Das diesjährige Motto des berühmten Spring- und Dressurturniers auf dem Hof Kasselmann am Teutoburger Wald.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:11-00:17:11]
Vom 23.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:12-00:17:12]
bis 27.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:12-00:17:16]
April trifft sich dort die Weltelite des Ressort- und Springsports.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:16-00:17:18]
Und ihr könnt live dabei sein.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:19-00:17:25]
Erlebt internationale Topreiter, Sport auf höchstem Niveau und ein wirklich einzigartiges Flair.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:26-00:17:33]
Wie jedes Jahr erwartet euch natürlich nicht nur erstklassiger Reitsport, sondern auch ein abwechslungsreiches Rahmenprogramm für die ganze Familie.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:34-00:17:42]
Zum Beispiel eine exklusive Abendshow mit Lisa und Mathis Röckener und weiteren beliebten Social Media Stars.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:42-00:17:44]
2025 steht alles im Zeichen der Niederlande.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:45-00:17:50]
Es gibt wandestypische Leckereien, passende Musik und jede Menge Oranje-Feeling.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:51-00:17:55]
Also, wenn ihr das nicht verpassen wollt, sichert euch jetzt eure Tickets.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:55-00:18:02]
Das geht online unter horses-and-dreams.de oder an der Tageskasse.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:18:02-00:18:06]
Wir wünschen euch viel Spaß und ein unvergessliches Erlebnis.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:18:07-00:18:33]
Werbung Ende. And how did you then end up creating a global movement around that? I mean, it's one thing being an excellent trainer. It's another thing bringing this across an ocean here where at the moment sitting in Germany, into Germany and now having so many instructors and so many people actually practicing natural horsemanship, which became a brand.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:18:34-00:19:26]
Yes. became a movement more than anything. Parelli Natural Horsemanship is a brand. Natural horsemanship is more of a movement. But here's how it simply happened. I had a student from Switzerland that met at a coffee shop or something and said, do you give riding lessons? And I said, no, I don't give riding lessons. Anyway, one thing led to another. Her name was Sylvia Fuhrer. And she said, well, can I come watch you train horses? I said, yeah, I guess so. Anyway, one thing led to another. Started giving her lessons. And then the next year she came back and took some more lessons. And then we became friends, and then she invited me to come to Europe, okay? So I went to Switzerland, and that was it. It was kind of fun, that sort of thing. But I met a man in Northern California from Switzerland named Jean-Claude Deasley.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:19:27-00:19:29]
One of the legends here from Europe.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:19:29-00:21:30]
Yes, and we became friends instantly. And for about, oh, I guess... almost 20 years, we would meet, and he was interested in reigning cowhorses, and we would meet in Reno at the Snaffleby Fraternity, one thing later, and we just had the same philosophy, and we both, you know, connected, and really, you could tell in the heart, we were both on the same page, and anyway. And then he introduced me to your father, Rolf Kruber, and said, he must come here to Equitana. So that's how I got my invite. And when I came here, I met a young man named Birgit Giesecke. And Birgit... was trying to be like a western performance trainer he had a horse named paul it was a nice registered quarter horse and there's also a renowned trainer here from germany yeah now he is yeah and so anyway so i i went and did a clinic there and then i used his horse and taught it to do the liberty and taught it to you know do uh slide stops without the bridle and you know All these kind of things while I was here for a couple of weeks. And so I came and started doing demonstrations here at Equitana. And, you know, two things happened. One, I brought a video. It showed all kinds of demonstrations, myself and my students doing all these amazing things. And we had it in Hall, where it used to be the Western Hall over there. I think it was Hall 4 then. And they had to bring policemen in because the crowds clogged up the thing. They wanted to see that video. It was a two or three minute long video and people never saw that. Well, then I started doing demos like seven a day. I was in this ring and then that ring and then this ring and then that ring. Then finally, your dad said, put him in hall six.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:30-00:21:31]
In the big arena here.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:32-00:21:39]
In the big arena. So many people went that the police came and had to extract.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:39-00:21:40]
Close down the place.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:41-00:21:55]
They were afraid it was going to collapse. It was over the limit. It was 6,000 people then. It was over the limit, and people were standing on top of each other. It caught people's attention. It caught on fire so quickly.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:55-00:22:02]
Why do you think it caught on fire so quickly here in Germany? What was the niche that hasn't been explored yet?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:03-00:22:42]
Yeah, I think it was so new and exciting and exciting. you know, in real people could see this is real and they would bring another problem horse or, you know, whatever the things we were doing, they could see it was real and they could see that regular people like themselves, they started using students in the demonstrations or started, you know, teaching in it. Somebody had never done anything with the, with the, with my program. And I think that it was just the right time at the right place and, And I think maybe everything is so kind of military approach here in Europe.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:42-00:22:50]
Yeah, because historically it's rooted in the military. And then out of that, we developed dressage, which became an Olympic discipline.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:50-00:22:56]
So everything is very linear. So this seemed to... to just touch people's hearts, the same.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:56-00:23:05]
And to break open this logical connection that we have that riding is an English saddle and a normal bridle or double bridle that we always used to take.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:23:06-00:23:37]
Right. And so, you know, the funniest thing that probably nobody remembers now is But people used to think that it was only Western and only worked with quarter horses, my program. That was the first big misconception. And now you know what the big misconception is? They think that natural horsemanship is trick training. And a lot of people that do trick training do natural horsemanship. And so the FBI called me up. They're in Switzerland, right?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:37-00:23:46]
Yeah, the FEI, for everyone that doesn't know, that's the World Riding Association in charge for the Olympic disciplines and all the other small disciplines.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:23:46-00:24:14]
So they called me and asked for an interview. They emailed first, can we do an interview? Yeah. They started asking me all these questions. What does the pedestal have to do with sport training? What does laying the horse down have to do? And all of a sudden I went... You're not asking me what natural horsemanship is, why it's good for sport horses. You're asking me why trick training. They said, yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:14-00:24:16]
They thought you were a trick trainer.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:16-00:24:53]
Yeah. Well, they thought natural horsemanship was a trick. And because the reason is, because you go on Instagram or whatever, that's all you see. You know, YouTube, you just see all these people that are wiggle a rope and do a couple of things that I do. And then they lay the horse down or kneeling, which is all fine. But that's not what I do. I use the stuff on the ground to prepare the horse for performance or purpose. So here's my little definition. You ready? Because I don't know what, if you go to the dictionary and look up horsemanship, what does it say? Have you ever looked that word up? It's a very misused word.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:54-00:25:11]
I give you my interpretation. I don't know the dictionary definition, but I would say it is having a connection to your horse and being able to do stuff together on ice level.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:11-00:25:17]
Good. Very good. In the dictionaries, it always says the art of riding or blah, blah, blah, something like that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:17-00:25:18]
Very fluffy.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:18-00:25:29]
Yeah, and very nondescript. So here's mine. The perpetual real horsemanship. First of all, the word natural and real are the only synonyms you can get together.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:30-00:25:33]
We're going to talk about the natural part soon also.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:35-00:25:46]
So my definition of real horsemanship is the perpetual and progressive series of habits and skills that both horses and humans need to become partners in preparation for purpose and performance.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:47-00:25:53]
And that's also rooted in the idea of breaking down things into smaller pieces.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:53-00:27:20]
Right. So you have to have a cake, then you have the icing, then you have the candles. So now I have three programs. I have the partnership program, which is for people that want to get a good basic. And leisure, you know, people who really want to have the great companion animal, friend, partner, and for people to learn real horsemanship. Then once they've learned that, I have the Pirelli Performance Program. And that's what I showed the other day. All of those guys are graduates of my performance program. You know, we had Giorgio who's jumping horses. a meter 50 with the bareback and bridle-less. And we had, you know, Franco with his stallion slide, stop spins, lead changes, all the dressage rider and the equitation rider and, I have a performance program and then I have a professional's program. I teach people how to become professionals in the horse industry and not just not just training horses, but how to how to function with people, how to read people and how to do facility design, maintenance and management, and also how to do the five pillars of business. You see, I'm one of the first graduates of the Michael Gerber Business Development Program and teaches us five pillars. First, you have to know what your products and services are. Then you have to know who your human capital is going to be, who's going to do all that work. Then you've got to do your finance. Then you've got to do your sales and marketing, marketing and sales. And then you've got to do IT integration.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:27:21-00:27:25]
And so that's what I teach everybody.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:27:25-00:27:30]
So all of my professionals actually learn how to be businessmen. And most horse trainers are not good businessmen.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:27:32-00:27:45]
Of course not. And that's for many horse trainers a big problem because they don't really know what they're doing. They're rooted in their passion, but they don't really have the business sense to actually know what they are doing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:27:45-00:29:42]
So the horse industry is quite arcane still compared to other industries. So here's why. Four reasons. It's steeped in wives' tales, mythology, bovine fecal matter, and ego. And none of that is scientific. So what I've done is I've come up with a behavioral science, how to analyze your horse's horsenality so that you know to go slower with right brain introverts and go faster with left brain extroverts and teach your horse why he should do it if he's a left brain introvert. It's a very behavioral science, which, by the way, Dr. Miller and I, who one of my great friends just passed away, he's the one who introduced the world to full imprinting. And we were at a equine ethology symposium in Paris 20 years ago, maybe longer. And again, because these were people who were examining whether the Pirelli program, these seven games – were really scientifically sound behavioral modifiers. And they gave us a standing ovation. They went, this is the real deal. Because it follows the same thing that happens in equine ethology, which is the study of the natural behavior of wild horses. How do they socialize? Why is there one stallion and 20 mares? And how do these young stallions fight and earn their pecking order to get to be the one that goes to challenge the new one? And how does all that work? And these people study this all over the world, from Porosky's horses to Nevada. To Australia, Brumbies, okay? Feral horses. And by the way, since we're on that, you know the word Mustang? You know what the real word is? It's a Spanish word, mustaño.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:43-00:29:44]
Okay, I didn't know that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:44-00:29:48]
And it's an anglicized word, mustaño to Mustang.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:48-00:29:51]
And mustaño in Spanish is what?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:51-00:30:10]
It's a feral horse. Okay. This means a horse that used to be, you know, with humans and then got away and started breeding. And, you know, there's only one really wild horse in the world, and that's Pirolsky's horse. Yes. The other horses are all feral horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:11-00:30:11]
They're wild.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:11-00:30:12]
They're living in the wild.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:12-00:30:16]
They domesticize at some stage.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:16-00:31:23]
So we have genetically altered. We've GMO'd all our horses. We have genetically altered. You know, I mean, think about the warm bloods or how did they, you know, take... those trotting horses, the carriage horses, and then start breeding. Totally, yeah. You know, breed them with a little bit of draft, a little bit of thoroughbred, you know, whatever. You know, and, of course, Germans and Dutch and Netherland people, especially in this area, are fascinated by genetics and some of the very best breeding methods. But no matter where the horses are, whether it's racing horses, jumping horses, dressage horses, or cutting horses, it's all we've genetically altered them. So now you turn them loose, and they start to kind of head back to – you know, what nature would, how are they going to survive in a natural environment? You know, they've got to have good hooves and, you know, dental occlusions have got to be correct. You know, all it'll, nature will balance itself if you give it a hundred years or so. So we screw it up overnight and nature, nature will get it back.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:24-00:32:59]
Werbung. Wer kennt es nicht? Es ist Samstag, das Pferd hat eine kleine Verletzung und ich bin mir unsicher. Muss ein Tierarzt drauf schauen? Muss ich vielleicht in die nächste Klinik fahren, um eine weitere Behandlung machen zu lassen? All das sind wichtige Fragen. wo wir inzwischen eine Hilfe anbieten. Denn für alle WIOS-Mitglieder gibt es den Online-Tierarzt. Insbesondere spannend für den gerade beschriebenen Fall, aber auch für nicht akute Verletzungen und Krankheiten, wo nicht sofort ein Tierarzt vor Ort sich ein Bild machen sollte. Die Frage, gehe ich in die Klinik, ja oder nein? Oder auch eine wichtige zweite Meinung. All das sind Fragestellungen, die wir abdecken mit wehorse. Dem Online-Tierarzt. Zudem ist es eine echte Kostenreduktion, denn das Ganze ist kostenlos innerhalb der WeHouse Mitgliedschaft unbegrenzt zu nutzen. Zudem täglich, wirklich täglich genutzt. ganze Woche von Montag bis Sonntag 7 bis 24 Uhr gibt es Termine. Was müsst ihr tun? Ihr müsst wehorse-Mitglied sein. Ihr müsst auf unserer Seite in den Bereich Online-Tierarzt navigieren und dann könnt ihr dort den Termin vereinbaren. Exklusiv für wehorse-Mitglieder. Werbung Ende. So we talked about the horsemanship angle and the definition to you what horsemanship is. So let's move over to the natural part because together it's natural horsemanship. So what's the natural part of it?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:60-00:34:41]
It's only natural for horses. This is a foreign subject to human beings. Okay, so horses are prey animals. People are predators. Horses are herd animals. We're pack animals. We like to gang up on people. See all the people on the Internet that gang up on people like me when they see one little excerpt or something. And, man, the keyboard courage and people saying, yeah, that Pat Pirelli guy is a bad guy, whatever. They gang up on people. That's why in the Old West they used to lynch people. The town would get mad whether he was guilty or not, and they thought he was guilty. It didn't matter. They'd hang him or put tar and feather on him, right? Okay. So we are primates. We are monkey see, monkey do learners. And it's natural for human beings to lean and pull and grip and grapple. Everything that a horse hates. It is natural for horses because what horses do with each other, and that's why I started the show the other day with turning the horses loose. And what do horses do with each other? That's the natural part. And so, you know, people can argue and say, oh, nothing's natural about training a horse or being with a horse or something. But if you think about it, why did the horse get the name Equus? Equalize. Somebody back thousands of years ago said, oh, this is Equus. This animal has it. And there's something the horse is the only animal that I can think of. that a human being can ride and have a chance at looking sexy. That's true. That's true. You can't look sexy on a donkey, on a cow, a camel, an elephant.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:42-00:34:43]
It elevates us.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:44-00:34:52]
There's something magical about it. So you go around Europe, you see all these statues of some great man, kings and generals. Always on a horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:52-00:34:53]
Always on a horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:53-00:35:23]
So there is something about the horse that is really, there's a natural phenomenon that So I always say horsemanship is a natural phenomenon. I mean, why would the ultimate prey animal, the ultimate predator, even touch them, let alone teach them all, work with all these things, play with them on the ground, let alone ride them, let alone jump jumps, do dressage, do cutting and reining? Why would that animal? It's because there's a natural attraction.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:24-00:35:25]
A natural connection, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:25-00:35:51]
And there's something almost male and female about rider and horse. There is. Our body parts fit. And so that to me is, I think, everybody's genuine fascination with the horse. And so many people get so linear and go, oh, I don't like that breed of horse. I only like this or whatever. But what people really, only two kind of people in the world, horse lovers and the other kind.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:53-00:36:03]
But on average, I would say the percentage is so high. You rarely meet people that say, I really hate horses. I cannot stand them.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:36:04-00:36:08]
The husband says that. It costs too much.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:36:08-00:36:18]
It's for other reasons because it's so expensive. But the general perception towards horses is just so good. Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:36:19-00:36:47]
But if you put horses... In an urban environment, it doesn't take long for people to say, oh, they stink. They got flies. We don't like them. You know, we don't want to hear Clifty Clop, Clifty Clop going down the street. You'd be surprised how many people, how many communities that have started off as horse. There's one community in California where one side is a sidewalk. The other side of the street is a horse trail. And now it's called Horsetown, USA. They're now trying to get outlaw the horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:36:48-00:36:49]
Because they're urbanizing the...

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:36:49-00:39:60]
Yeah, because they're like, we don't want the flies, we don't want the smell, we don't want to see the poop, we don't, you know. So in a way, they love, like people love dolphins, right? Dolphins are great because they always look like they've got a smile on their face. I guarantee you, if you had to mess around with dolphins every day and... Like I know dolphin trainers and what they have to do to the stinky, fishy food. They have to feed them and do all the stuff. And, you know, we think cleaning a stall is bad. You go work in a dolphin place and you've got to play with them six times a day. Sure. You know, Freddie Kinney, I used to study with him for two weeks a year. And, you know, we would go over to the dolphin pool there at Rapperswil. And, you know, he taught me a lot about playing with a giraffe, playing with a camel, playing with it. You know, ostrich, we did all kinds of different things, you know. So the horse is special. And if you study what they do with each other, that's what natural horsemanship is. And that's why these seven games that horses play with each other is what I teach people to do. How do you connect? That's number one. How do you apply steady pressure? Number two. How do you apply rhythmic pressure? Number three. And how do you get upward and downward transitions on a straight line? How do you get perfect circles? How do you get lateral moves? And how do you get a horse to collect? Those are the seven things. You do it on the ground and in the saddle. And so a lot of the misconception that people have is that the Prelli program is just stuff we do on the ground. And natural horsemanship is just stuff you do on the ground. Riding is another thing. There is a natural way to ride a horse without contact and a natural way to ride a horse with contact. And the hardest one for humans, even for me to teach other people, is to ride with contact and not micromanage. See, there's four propensities that humans have that cause them not to be able to be great with horses, not to achieve equus. Number one, we are the most chauvinistic animal in the world. We think we're better than every other animal. Number two, we are naturally chauvinistic. We are naturally autocratic. We want to micromanage everything. And since we're smarter than our brothers and our sisters and our cousins, we want to micromanage them or our husbands or our wives. Number three, we're anthropomorphic, which means putting human thoughts and values into animals' actions. And it's bad enough with a dog, but when you do it with a horse, it's a prey animal. You can't judge what he did, why he did what he did with our values. And the last thing is an addiction to linear thinking. People want their process to look like their product. And that's the whole secret about horses is that the process doesn't at all look like the product. And so one of the things that confuses people is what's the relevance of all this stuff that these Pirelli people do on the ground? how is that going to help my dressage horse? How's that going to help my jumping horse? How's that going to help my performance horse?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:60-00:40:05]
And that's why we, because it may take two years and you will see no result. And then it makes click.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:05-00:40:31]
And then you have an exponential curve, maybe super exponential curve. And so that's where the other night I, my whole demonstration was, I'm going to do show you the probably performance program, not the probably, um, play with horses for fun. Okay. Um, That's phase one. Phase two is now if you want to, okay, in anything you do, you snow ski?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:32-00:40:35]
No, I used to not actively in long break, but I know how to do it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:35-00:40:50]
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So here's what everybody does. First, you just want to be safe, right? Yeah. Then you want to start having a little bit of fun. Can you have fun on skis? Of course. Yeah, me too. I can ski. That's awesome. You know, then you start to think, I want to be able to do stem cresties or I want to be able to.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:50-00:40:51]
Exactly.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:51-00:40:60]
Then you want to at least taste the excellence here and there. Then you want to get excellent. Then you want to be competitive. Then you want to be very competitive.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:00-00:41:01]
That's true.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:01-00:42:31]
And then you become a professional. If you ask any professional Austrian or Swiss snow ski instructor or any ski instructor in the world, they all started off just being safe, having fun, touching excellence, getting excellence, competitive, very competitive. Then they became professionals. So that's, to me, what I've done. That's why I have three different programs now. The one is for the safe and fun and just taste excellence. The next one is for let's get competitive and very competitive. And you can see some of my guys. Those guys, they're winning. And I've got another 20 here in Europe that are winning all over the place in all the different disciplines. Then I teach people how to be equine professionals. And I don't know of another school that really teaches people how not only to train the horses ethically, humanely and ethically, and how to teach people and to empower them and to do business. I don't know of any other school that does what my new school, what my new campus does. You know, I had a campus in In Australia, I had one in Colorado, one in Florida and one in England. Now I'm down to one campus in the United States. And so that campus is the Harvard of horsemanship, which our purpose is to produce horses. Professional and competitive superstars for the future. And you saw some of them the other day.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:32-00:43:01]
Natural horsemanship as a philosophy and training method has been around for quite a number of years now. Here in Europe, we have a number of different riding styles. Take the Olympic disciplines, working equitation evolved. We here also have Western riding, certainly different than you guys do it in the States. How do you view the influence of natural horsemanship on all these disciplines here in Europe?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:03-00:43:51]
Well, that's the reason I did my show the way I did the other night. But first of all, the fact that people, their hearts told them this was something that was good for them and for their horse. The leisure rider. 80% of all horse owners, maybe higher, do nothing competitive. And the 20% of the competition riders, English or Western or speed events or whatever it is, they can't believe anybody would own a horse and not compete. It's like they're two different worlds. So I think one of the things that is, first of all, people like Michelle Robert.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:52-00:43:53]
The French show jumper.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:54-00:44:05]
Just as natural. He does things so different than everybody else. He's a natural horseman. He doesn't do the Pirelli program, but he is just so natural.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:05-00:44:08]
He follows the principles just naturally.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:08-00:44:40]
Yes, naturally. Anybody that's a natural singer, a natural musician, a natural skier, some people have just got that X factor, right? Well, my job is for regular people to get extraordinary results. And you saw people in there the other night, and horses will run faster and jump higher out of heart and desire, but you've got to be able to have the riding skills and all the different things and the knowledge on how to build, you know, like you saw. I mean, how many flying lead changes do you think the crowd saw the other night in my show?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:41-00:44:42]
Hundreds.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:42-00:46:29]
Hundreds. Yeah. This horse was changing. That's the performance. Yeah. And so these are people that are competing and winning. And so it's either you're very, very natural as a rider or with a trainer or with horses, or you need to learn to learn. Yeah. I don't think it's affected the show world quite yet because, again, I think most horse training methods are very chauvinistic, you know, and a lot of it comes from the military, which we've got rules and you must do this by this time and you must go like this. And I love structure, like the German training scale, rhythm, relaxation. Super structured. But rhythm, relaxation, contact, swung. um straightness then collection yeah i know that scale inside and out and that's what i use the words i use are rhythm relaxate in the beginning stages rhythm relaxation understanding then impulsion straightness and collection so the first three rhythm relaxation it's absolute no it's walter zettel who's one of my mentors I rode with him six times a year for six days every time. And he would come and do nine lessons. I would ride four and watch five. Sit right next to him and watch five. I learned from great masters. And I think a lot of people kind of in the horse business kind of learn it By themselves, so to speak. Or, you know, I know here in Germany that people take lessons and there's the whole Beurider system and there's some things like that. But still, a lot of people are still just kind of winging it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:31-00:47:03]
A big topic to many people is the way the horse world is portrayed in online media, especially in social media, how riders are treating each other on social media. You just briefly touched upon that. How do you see that, that we are boiling complex situation down to one shot or one small video sequence and that we struggle to see the entire picture? How do you personally handle that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:03-00:47:51]
Okay, well, first of all, humans are natural till we're 12. Then we turn into practicing adults. And an adult is a human being who practices making simple things difficult. and easily addicted to linear thinking. They want the process to look like a product and they want to write predatory rules. So because we're predators, we turn into pack animals like wolves. And so what happens is, and this is, I think the secret with really great horsemen like Jean-Claude Disley was they can see a dressage horse and a reigning horse and see the similarities, not the differences. Okay. Even, what's the great, that's rider, she's riding, reigning horses now.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:51-00:47:52]
Anki van Grunsven.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:52-00:48:53]
Yeah, Anki. Yeah, she saw the similarities. Okay. So now most people are always looking for differences. Instead of, and so this is why when people, what I think horses can do for people is teach people to be better human beings. and to be more loving, more understanding, be the ambassador of yes instead of the minister of no. Look for similarities. Look for good things. Forgive a few mistakes, but no, what are they, you know, it's centuries old. Someone would take something out of context in a newspaper, and they would just put that part. They didn't put the 16 paragraphs before, and they just take this one little statement out, right? Well, nowadays, it's some little video on, you know, anybody can have, three seconds or 30 seconds of not a nice out of harmony something happens you know unexpected or whatever oh and the people love to take all that and glue things together. I've seen them take and edit videos.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:53-00:48:56]
Yeah, and social media is amplifying that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:56-00:50:41]
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So what I think horses can do for us is teach us all to be better human beings. So what I'd like to see is more people showing, you know, not just, show the good stuff. Now, I am, you know, in 2009, I won the Humane Society of the United States. I won the Humane Horseman of the Year Award. I mean, they studied hard and fast, hard and long to see. It was I really humane with horses, and they did studies and did all kinds of things, and I won this award. And so that's what, to me, what people need to see. Okay, let me give it this way. If every horse's mother could watch her foal get its first ride, get all of its training, Would she be smiling and saying, oh, look at my son. Look at the nice process he's going through. The teachers are so nice to my son or my daughter. Or would they be cringing? There's a lot of horse training out there that's primitive and shameful. And so I use this as a, when I play with the horse, I go, if your mom was watching, I promise you I'm going to put a smile on her face. And then the other thing is, I always say, whatever I'm doing, would my mom be smiling? My mom is in heaven now, and I know whatever I'm doing. And my teachers, they're looking down, and I'm going, I'm doing everything I can. I want them going, yeah, you're doing it, Pat. You're doing it. Keep doing it. You're putting a smile on our face. So I think that's maybe a filter that we could look at is our mom and the horse's mom. Exactly. And if you just said, we've got two moms watching what's going on here.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:41-00:50:42]
Better behave.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:43-00:50:45]
Yeah, it better be nice. It better be beautiful.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:45-00:50:46]
Exactly. Better be nice.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:47-00:53:35]
Yeah, it better be harmonious. It better be synchronistic. It needs to be artful. It needs to be beautiful. So that's... what I call Pirelli natural horsemanship. Now, there's lots of natural horsemanship out there that is not Pirelli natural horsemanship. Most of it is an imitation of excerpts of, you know, wiggle the rope or do this or do that or get the horse run next to you or something like that. And some people are very natural anyway and have taken a few good ideas. And I saw some beautiful things last night in the Hop Top show. I was going, yeah, there you go. People weren't doing that back in 1987 when I came here. But they're doing it now, so it's like, you know, I can see the... It's a process. I can see that it's growing, you know, and people are adapting it. The talented people get it, get everything easy anyway. I don't care what. If they're talented, again... I've had over 200,000 graduates. They were regular people getting extraordinary results, not some super talent. Now the talented people, I'll take them. That's what I'm now, because my job is inspiration before information. Because if people don't say wow, they ain't going to ask how. So what I'm looking for now are the talented few to give more inspiration. I want, you know, like Kinsey. And her brother and Laurent are all coming to South Carolina to my place. They're all like, you know, we were talking about it the last two, three days. And Kenzie's ridden with me before. She came to Florida and rode with me. And we did some things and stuff. So this is something, you know, that's my gift to her father for what he did for me. Introduce me to your father. And it's opened these doors. And then again, my job was inspiration. And then pretty soon people wanted the information. So it's a process for me to keep simplifying things. I think I've done a pretty good job on levels one through four for the leisure riders and the people that get a good basic. Now I'm really working hard on the performance, and my professional's program is quite good. Cool. You know, I've got probably 50 more years left in me. I just turned 71. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, turned 71. Yeah. It's still on fire, and our new place in South Carolina is one of the most gorgeous pieces of property I've ever seen. It's got four lakes. It's got a river. It's got beautiful sandy ground. It was a three-day eventing facility, so it's got... tracks and trails and jumps and water hazards.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:35-00:53:40]
And it's just, it's like everything you need, everything for every horse needs to do those things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:40-00:54:12]
A reigning horse needs to go in the forest. A reigning horse needs to go. The dressage horses, I get dressage horses that are afraid to go out of an arena. And we, you know, they're there for three, three or four months. And we, you know, and I'm talking about some, some, you know, million dollar horses that, that need this natural experience to, to, for their foundation. And then they can handle, um, way more things. And so it's like, why does so many dressage horses, are they so spooky?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:12-00:54:16]
Yeah. Because they are just not practicing these situations, right?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:16-00:54:41]
They don't, they, they, they, the hothouse flowers at nothing. We, we, we only ride here. We only do this. We only port. Every horse needs a great foundation. Last night, it put a smile on my face. It was all those children with the wings. Yeah. Riding bareback and natural and just riding around like wild Indians, but yet with some precision and some form.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:43-00:54:48]
I told my wife, I said, you can't believe how good it was. It was touching.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:48-00:55:21]
It was literally touching. It was literally touching. Yeah. That's what I like to see. And then get those children after they've had fun and learned how to be safe and now they're getting excellent. Now let them go into the disciplines, not start taking up and down lessons, you know, how to post and how to sit and equitation lessons. And the first five lessons riding a horse is crazy. You know, it's like we've got to exaggerate to learn, refine as we go along. But we've got to have our young riders and our new riders have got to feel safe and have fun.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:22-00:55:25]
Pat, it was a pleasure having you on the pod. And thanks for taking the time.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:25-00:56:08]
Yeah, no, my pleasure. And I'm really proud of... of the how you're carrying on you know I can see your father the more we talk and stuff I can because he he had an enthusiasm that was you know really it caught well it caught this all on fire here and he had a vision and And I can see you've got some of the same. The acorn didn't fall too far from the tree. So thanks so much. I'm proud of you. And again, thanks to Jean-Claude Dysli for the friendship that we had and bringing there and then now learn also getting to know his two children and It's like I know him even better now. It's like I can see.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:08-00:56:12]
Also carrying forward into the future this friendship from back in the days.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:12-00:56:20]
Yeah, yeah. It's like it's really cool. So, you know, I tell people if I don't see you in the future, I'll see you in the pasture.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:22-00:56:22]
Good.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:22-00:56:23]
May the horse be with you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:24-00:56:24]
Exactly.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:24-00:56:27]
Thanks so much, Patty. Very good. Cheers. Ciao.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:33-00:56:33]
Ciao, ciao.

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