#76 Blending bodywork and movement therapy with Yasmin Stuart

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:01-00:00:08]
In this episode, we're talking with Yasmin Stuart, an equine physiotherapist and trauma-informed horse trainer.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:09-00:00:21]
To be able to broaden everyone's horizons and help them to see the joy in being with horses, not just here is a list of movement patterns that we need to take the horse through, I think is really important.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:22-00:01:58]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from Wehorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Yasmin Stuart is a renowned equine physiotherapist and trauma-informed horse trainer based in the UK. In 2016, Yasmin completed her level 6 diploma in equine physiotherapy and rehabilitation and has since gone on to study a variety of different bodywork and training methodologies which now underpin her practice. Over the course of her career, she has developed an extensive understanding of behavioral science, posture, and biomechanics of which she applies to each horse that she works with, giving her success even with the most complex of cases. Yasmin prioritizes a consent-based approach within both bodywork and training sessions, whereby she works with the horse's nervous system to promote homeostasis. It is this approach which promotes relaxation, opening a doorway into the horse's body, and the results being long-lasting emotional and postural changes. Alongside traveling the UK for in-person one-on-one sessions and internationally for clinics, Yasmin also offers a range of online resources, which includes courses and monthly webinars on different topics which support an integrative approach to horsemanship. We cover a lot in this episode, and I can't wait to share it with you. So let's dive in. Yasmin, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you. And even just like the few minutes that we chatted beforehand and like hearing you speak, I'm like, ah, this is going to be a good episode. So welcome to the podcast.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:59-00:02:13]
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. And again, when you sent me the pre-podcast notes, I thought, oh, I love this. There's so much to talk about and I'm so excited. So thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:14-00:02:30]
Awesome. You are an equine physiotherapist and a trauma informed horse trainer. Can you tell us about how you got started with this work and like what was the origin story that ignited your desire to study and then offer these modalities?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:31-00:20:13]
So it's this is a long, convoluted story, so I hope I hope everyone's bedding in. But I before I did my equine physiotherapy diploma, I. I had a series of horse-related incidents which wound up with me being in so much pain that I couldn't walk um I was working at a yard and my boss had just had surgery on her collarbone and so she couldn't ride and and so she had me riding a lot of the horses um one of which was her personal horse who was a very interesting character and I can reflect back on that now and think not sure I would have uh Not sure I would have gone about things in the same way with the lens that I have now, but essentially I was riding the horse and she... I got upset and I got bronced off and I landed on the arena fence and that really hurt. And then a week after that, I got kicked in the ribs. A horse who all of the horses were on very minimal turnout and he didn't want to come in. And I went to catch him and he turned and spun and kicked me. And again, you know, there are a lot of things that kind of stacked up to that situation for that to occur. And then I had a gorgeous little fjord pony, my first pony, Ted, who a week after I got kicked in the ribs, he kind of squashed me around the stable door leaving in the morning because he wanted to be out in the pasture for his four hours turnout that they had at the time. Which again, you know, all of these situations I can reflect on and think, There's a reason why those happened. But the long and short of it was I was really sore. And I found a chiropractor who specialised in diagnostic radiography. And he took radiographs of my back and he said, you've got a compressed and herniated disc and you've got degeneration of your last lumbar vertebra and you're never going to ride again. And I was a bit like, you know, I'm 18, and this all feels – I knew nothing about bodies, body work, nothing like that, but this all feels like really chronic stuff. Like, this feels like stuff that's been around a while, not just three incidents that stack up to me having a problem. So respectfully, if you're not going to help me get back on a horse, I'm going to find – Someone who will and someone who will get me out of pain. So I dabbled around with different sort of body work things. And I got to a point where I could go three months and not feel any pain. And then it was basically like the last day of the third month. You could almost wager a switch would flick and I'd be in pain again. And so then I started to say, well, why? You know, I have the body work and that's fine. But then why does it unravel again? And then I found a body worker. He called himself a remedial sports therapist. And basically he taught me how to move differently. And this was a combination of resistance training at the gym and then yoga and altering my biomechanics. And then very quickly, I was not in pain anymore and I could function. But not only that, but things were improving. My riding was improving. It was better than it was before I had the accident. And so or the accidents, plural. And so that kind of got me thinking about our horses and about what they're putting up with. And I was, you know, at a classical dressage yard and their interest was in biomechanics. And I thought, but if they're in pain. You know, we need to do something about that. And so I kind of resolved myself that I wanted to do some sort of bodywork training. And at the time, you know, they had bodyworkers come on the yard. They didn't really value them that much. I think it was still in the remit of novelty. You know, oh, look, that horse is having, you know, a massage. How lovely. Yeah. But it wasn't really taken seriously. And so I started looking for bodywork training and I happened across a diploma in equine physiotherapy. And I thought, that's that's what I would like to do. And so I did that and. I was then kind of let out into the world as an equine physiotherapist. And I started to realize that a lot of horses are in a bad way because of how we ride them. And so that kind of came full circle into... training you know it being a training mediated thing with my lens so you know we train the horse to move differently and it brings them out of pain and this kind of coincided with me just being a bit loud and obnoxious on social media um kind of spewing my viewpoint to whoever would would read it you know there's one uh one post that still haunts me today which was titled training aids are bad and I still agree with the sentiment in every way but I read my old writing and I'm like oh gosh no I'm not sure how I feel about that um but then I also appreciate the growth from there but what being loud and drew attention to my page. And through that, I had the privilege of working with Equitopia Centre. And then with Equitopia Centre, they put me in touch with another trainer that I got the privilege of working with in the Netherlands from a biomechanic approach. And then I started to kind of filter out into other other training methodologies as well just picking up things I started to see with my physiotherapy lens that the things that were being taught from a classical dressage perspective with my understanding of the body from a physiotherapy perspective they weren't they weren't matching up you know the the anatomy was telling a different story to the pictures as it were So, or not the pictures, the visual that I was being presented with, with the horse under saddle in a training setting, in a classical dressage setting. So that started to get me kind of straying away from that a little bit. And then I started to feel a bit like you can target the body, but then... There's a level of training that has to occur and training is not just this magical thing that happens. It's a process and we need to understand how to train horses, how to teach them, how they learn. And then if we're teaching humans, you know, we have to understand how humans learn and then marry the two together. And so that's where I started to get very interested in equine behavioural science. You know, why are horses behaving how they behave? what is that telling us? What is that telling us about the movement patterns we are doing with them? Are they capable of doing what we want them to do? Even if their bodies are doing the thing, what's their face saying? How okay are they in that moment? Even though we can see that there are movement interventions that we want to do with that horse, How appropriate is it to do that with that horse based upon their behavior? And then it was kind of like not like the bottom fell out of my world, but I just started to see so much not being OK in the industry. And then. That kind of corresponded with my last horse not being OK as well. And me feeling like I had turned over a lot of stones and looked at a lot of things from a welfare perspective, thrown lots of different professionals at my horse from a welfare perspective and was still not getting anywhere and not really not really being able to understand why we weren't getting anywhere I could understand the biomechanics I could understand the behavior I could understand the behavior from a very behavioral science perspective you know I could look at the ethograms I could see that he was in pain I could look at other ethograms and I could see that he was stressed and and I couldn't bridge the gap between the movement perspective and the behaviour perspective. And it was a very sad situation to be in because his behaviour was disintegrating in a big way and he was dangerous to manage. And he was dangerous to people handling him, but also he was a danger to himself because of his behaviour too. And so... We made the decision to have him put down because he was becoming quite unmanageable and it wasn't pleasant for anyone involved, you know, especially him. And that left me feeling really despondent with the industry. And so I just withdrew a little bit. And then one of my clients said, hey, I've happened across this work and I think you'll really like it. And there's someone who dipped her toe into a lot of different training methodologies. I was a bit over, you know, someone saying, oh, this work is fantastic. And then you look at it from a behaviour lens and a biomechanic lens and you think, oh, well, that's just cruelty dressed up in fluffy words. Lovely. I was really, really sick of that. Um, so she, she kept going and she kept saying, Oh, I think you'll really like this work. Have a look at it. Um, in the end I was like, Oh, fine. I will listen to a podcast and then I can tell you why I hate it. And then you'll leave me alone. Um, and that actually ended up being Celeste's work. And so I listened to the podcast that she sent me and I thought, you know, I actually quite like that. I quite like this work. This resonates a lot. This explains why all of the biomechanics stuff that I have done, there have been horses that have absolutely thrived. And then there have been horses where they're not thriving. They're having a really hard time and no one can explain why. And it's because of the actual muscular dynamics of how they're using their body. And so I just started kind of fiddling about with her work a little bit. And then she actually popped me a message because I did a social media post like, hey, I've been playing around with this work. And she popped me a message and said, oh, this is the masterclass. And so I hopped into the masterclass and then I did the nerve release training in the US. I think it will be two and a half years ago now, three years ago. Yeah, 2022, I did that. And it just absolutely reignited my passion for all things bodywork and movement. Because what she did was grant permission for the horse to be heard, truly. You know, I'd had this behavioral lens and I could categorically look at the horse and say pain or discomfort. But then... There was no point where I had granted myself permission to truly, truly put the horse's feelings first because there was the owner expectation. I found that really empowering to just say, well, this horse isn't OK and this is why. And also, I think the recognition of. the postural ramifications, posture is my thing. I absolutely love it. But then the knitting together the horse's real time experience relative to their posture was something that clicked into place through kind of being exposed to Celeste's work. And then after I did that, there's an excellent organisation called Understand Horses who do fabulous little short courses that are underpinned in behavioral science. And they did a trauma informed horse trainer certificate, which boiled down into the neurophysiology of trauma. And that was huge for me because I, It took the theoretical kind of assumptions that we make about horses and their lived experiences and gave them neurophysical descriptors, really. Gave me a, this is the sort of hormonal cascade that is happening when a horse experiences trauma. These are the different types of trauma that a horse can experience. This is how... these are the differences in types of trauma and this is how it influences their body and this is how it influences their physiology. And for me, it started to put into place, this is what I'm feeling under my fingertips. This is why this horse has spontaneous recovery of triggers. And it gave me a lot of answers about a lot of horses and, And also kind of gave me the permission to cut myself some slack with my previous horse, Falcon. And so really, that's a very long, convoluted way of saying it's started to piece together the fact that we can't look at the body and the emotions separately. And I've seen a lot of things looking at them in their own different ways. A lot of fantastic behavioral trainers who are missing the posture piece. And a lot of fantastic postural trainers who are missing the behavior piece. And so that's why that horse isn't succeeding. But then also it made me reflect on my physiotherapy skill set in that as a physiotherapist, you know, by and large, you're taught to target the muscular system, the musculoskeletal system. But we actually, in my opinion, need to target the horse's neurology first, their emotional system first, because I actually find sort of muscular training is quite straightforward. It's quite easy. You know, you're just progressively loading the body. But if you don't have the horse's nervous system on board, you're going to be progressively loading movement patterns that we don't want to be want to be loading so this is the place where I'm at now where I get the the kind of the joy of meeting people who have interesting things going on with their horse and I really enjoy being able to break that down and help to show them what those things might be how those things come to be and then also put together a broad spectrum plan to help them pick the pieces up whilst working in conjunction with other professionals who you know who look at other things so I like to work with trainers because I do more of the body work and then training relative to specific movement patterns that I would like to train. But then I also recognize that the horse needs training around that, where I work with hoof care professionals and saddle fitters and dentists and other body workers as well, as well as veterinarians. to really build that holistic piece so we actually get to the bottom of what's going on with the horse, not just my horse has had this obscure diagnosis and I want to ride next week. I hope that answered the question. It was a very long waffle.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:20:14-00:20:51]
It did. I just want to say as well that your work and the combination of all of these things, like making it possible, really holistic essentially that it's, you know, it's bringing in so many different aspects is so important because like you said, there's so many missing foundational pieces within the industry that it's like, if we could just bring in these different aspects and, and, and look at things more holistically, I think that we'd get a lot further. Um, so everything that you said and everything that you do is just so important. And I'm just, I'm so excited to have you here.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:20:52-00:22:03]
Thank you. And I, you know, again, I look at what I was taught initially from a physiotherapy, physiotherapeutic perspective, and I do think it was really important. And it gave me this huge foundation that I now have the privilege of sitting upon and and then outsourcing to other things that I pick up on the way. But I do think. You know, it's. there is so much more to it. There's so much more to movement in general rather than with horses. I think we can be very much... We do the carrot stretches and the poles and then the problem is solved. And it really is so much more complex than that. And it also... I know from a rehabilitation perspective, I know myself because I've done it for my own body, but it can also be really soul destroying and it can also be very monotonous and there's a lack of joy within that. So to be able to broaden everyone's horizons and help them to see the joy in being with horses, not just here is a list of movement patterns that we need to take the horse through, I think is really important.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:03-00:22:24]
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I completely hear you on that. One of my horses, I had like this, okay, we're going to do this today and this and this and this and this. Here's our checklist of things we're going to go through to make you better. And he said, Began to completely shut down.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:25-00:25:03]
It was almost like his body would go into like a freeze mode When we would start doing it because he was just so checked out from it and it almost like I don't want to do this anymore And so it really made me realize okay like like you had said there needs to be less monotony and there needs to be joy within this it's it's healing with joy not you know healing because you're a quote broken and need to be quote fixed you know yeah and like for me this is where the behavior piece comes in which is not something that i was taught in my initial training in that um there will be indicators that that horse gives to say This is not serving me well in this moment in time. But it can be quite easy to ignore those indicators when someone gives you a plan of, well, this is what you do. And at the end of doing this, your horse is fixed. You know, if we do the 12 week rehab plan, which was what I was taught to do. what if that horse is still struggling with the exercises in week one? What if you do, you know, two days worth of exercises and then on day three, your horse is fatigued and actually, you know, the plan says that you need to do day three's exercises, but your horse isn't here to show up for that. Then that puts that human in that really tricky situation where they've been told by a professional they need to do these exercises to make their horse better, but their horse is saying, oh, can't do this today and so do they damage their relationship with their horse and keep doing those exercises if they notice that their horse is having a hard time or do they say we're just not going to today because you're having a hard time or you know does that professional actually program other things as well to say okay We'd like to do these movement patterns. But then if you're feeling like your horse isn't showing up for it today, what can you do that's enriching for that horse? Can you include enrichment within the sessions where you're doing movement therapy as well? So we do a bit of, hey, we've got to do this for your body, but let's do this for your mind as well. And I think this is that empowerment piece of empowerment to the people as well, which... I just feel really strongly about making people their best experts on their own horses so they can advocate for them better.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:04-00:26:33]
Love, love, love, love. I can't say that enough. I just. Yeah, I think that's so important. One of one of the things that I noticed as I was going through your website and I've just been following you for the past few years, the differences. that I've noticed with you is how much you do combine the movement therapy with the body work. And so where I am, I've worked with a ton of different body workers over the years in different modalities. So, you know, chiropractic massage, osteopathy, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And every single one of them have just walked in and treated my horses on the cross ties. Never once have I ever moved my horse in front of them. And when I reflect back on that, it's like, you know, like that's that's interesting. And I I think it's maybe an important conversation to have. And it's also important to reflect on people's capacity and their time and, you know, and everything like that as well. So there's a lot of nuance to it. But you combine both bodywork and movement therapy to restore horse's posture and way of going during your session. So can you talk about how you do that? Like what a session with you looks like and the benefit of including movement therapy with bodywork?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:35-00:31:60]
Yeah. So this, if I talk about how that came around and then also talk about what that looks like in a session. So this, I initially it looked like the stock kind of body work thing, which is you come out, you do the manual therapy piece and then you say to the owner, I'd like you to do this exercise and this exercise and this exercise. And then you'd come out the following week and they'd go, oh, or not the following week, but maybe the following month. And they'd say, OK. oh, I did the exercises, but my horse doesn't seem any better. And I'm looking at the horse and thinking, oh, the horse doesn't look any better. And then I might say, oh, have you got a video of you doing the exercises or have you got a video of you riding the horse? And I'd look at the video and think, okay, this is making sense because what you're saying is happening versus my observations of what are happening are two very different things. So, for example... I'd like you on a very basic level, sort of old with my old physio cap on. I'd like you to ride your horse in a lengthened frame because we need to develop their top fine or develop more adjustability through their spine. And they'd say, oh, I was doing that. But nothing's really changed. And then I'd look at the video and think, OK, well, my idea of a lengthened frame and their idea of a lengthened frame are two very different things. We're not achieving that, which means we're not getting the neuromuscular output, which for me, if we're not getting results. And by that, I mean changes in the horse's body, not performance related results. I don't feel job satisfaction. I want that horse to be better. I want that horse to feel better. I want that horse and human to have a more cohesive relationship. So then I started to get fussier with what I was asking people to do. So I'd start to explain when you do this, I'd like to see X, Y and Z. So not just ride your horse on a long rein. And kind of hope that osmotically it happened. But I'd give them a real breakdown of that. And then next time I'd see them, they'd say, I tried to do the thing, but it just wasn't working. So then, you know, you go back to the drawing board. OK, why is it not working? Show me a video and then I'd see a skill issue or I'd see. something highlighted in the horse's way of going that I hadn't noticed from my palpation assessment and the walk and the trot up. So then it came to be, OK, well, now we need to integrate movement into the sessions so that I can help to troubleshoot these in real time to give people actual skills that they can take away and apply so they can actually complete their homework, And not feel totally at sea with it, because I know it's really daunting when people say, oh, do this with your horse. And you think, how on earth am I going to achieve that? So nowadays, that looks like a flexible approach to the session, depending on what the horse and the human need. So some sessions that might be nearly pure body work. But then if we're going through a little bit of movement stuff in that, I will coach the human through that rather than me doing it. I will coach the human through that. So they come away with skills that they can then apply in the following weeks to help to support their horse equally. If there is more of a sort of ridden skill set acquisition needed, it might be that we do. We tack the horse up. We pop the rider on. We do a little bit of body work. We do a little bit of movement. We do a little bit of body work, a little bit of movement under saddle. So I can troubleshoot things in real time and just kind of have the rolling dialogue. Let it unravel in the session. of what's going on with the horse and just really help the owner to feel what it feels like when it feels good. And then also break down the steps for them so that they can recreate that as well. Sometimes it will be more of an in-hand based thing. Sometimes it might be a combination of bodywork in hand and ridden, just really dependent on what the human needs. This will be... It will usually be short bursts of movement, particularly when you're altering the nervous system. You're really looking at short, very meaningful bursts of movement. So you can really kind of code in. This is what it feels like rather than continuous repetitions to fatigue. And this might even be. I do the little piece of body work to help to release the body so that horse can access the movement that we're looking to achieve outside of the body work setting. Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:32:00-00:32:04]
It does. And I'm just thinking, okay, when are you going to come to Atlanta, Canada?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:04-00:32:12]
To do sessions with me and my horses, because this is so cool.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:32:12-00:32:51]
I think it's, I just think it's really, really cool that you're, you know, combining and maybe more people do this, and I'm just not aware of it. But the idea of combining like, the under saddle work with the body work and then riding at the same time and blending it all together so that the horse can be like, oh, that's how my body's supposed to feel during this. And the human's like, oh, that's how my horse is supposed to feel during this. Because again, if we don't know, how are we gonna, how will we do better? How will we get there if we have no idea what it is that we're even looking for or supposed to be feeling?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:53-00:35:14]
Yeah, and I think that from a cultural perspective, there can often be a disconnect between the rehabilitation work or the body development work and then general riding. or a disconnect between riding for biomechanics and then performance riding. And so I do sometimes feel a little bit of pushback, you know, when I'm encouraging people to lengthen their reins and looking at biomechanics and the fear of, you know, heaven forbid we lengthen that horse's neck. And what if they fall on the forehand? And so having to explain, I appreciate that your trainer trains you like this and, But these are the issues your horse has in their body. And so this is what they need to transcend those problems. And therefore, this is what it's going to feel like. I think it's really important. And I think that there's a lot of fear in the equine industry. People are fearful that They're getting it wrong. They've got it wrong. They've hurt their horse. They might hurt their horse. They're fearful about what other people think of them. They're fearful about the competition that they've scheduled for next week, even though they don't enjoy competing and find that quite scary. But, you know, culture tells us this is what we do with our horses. And so to break that down and create this space that feels good for them, feels good for the horse, takes the pressure off, but then also gives them this opportunity. place where they can go so this idea of this is what progression is going to look like and this is what my horse needs and also it's completely fine if we don't achieve big silly wild things whilst we are restoring my horse's posture again is another important piece and I think it's empowerment to the people where they can say well I know this trainer has told me to do this But from a body work perspective, this is what I'm looking to achieve. I'm not sure this trainer understands that. And so I am very happy and very comfortable to say we're not going to do that right now because we've got a plan that I feel very comfortable in.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:15-00:35:36]
So good. So good. Can we talk a little bit about consent and how you weave in consent-based body work and training? Like what does that look like in a typical session? And then also how do you explain that to owners who may be seeking like a quick fix?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:40-00:41:57]
This is a big, big question. And it's, yeah it's a really big topic and I think it's especially difficult in a bodywork setting because what horses arguably you could say they don't have the capacity to recognize after a bodywork setting they're going to feel better so we could go and have bodywork and whilst personally I don't appreciate this with my own body I don't appreciate someone pulling me around it pulls my nervous system out of my body it makes me feel quite sick and I come away feeling worse than I do better however some people can resolve themselves to they feel that that's what their body needs rightly or wrongly they will endure the discomfort rightly or wrongly and they will feel better off the back of it horses perhaps don't have that capacity and so When they are feeling something in their body, whether that is pain, whether that is a lack of safety through nervous system dysregulation, and you touch somewhere on their body, they have the potential to tighten up or feel worse off the back of that. And In tightening up, feeling worse or fighting with you from a bodywork perspective in that setting, we have the potential to make what they're experiencing in their body feel worse. We can make them more painful because of inducing more brace or maybe we've pulled them around and they've re-traumatized the tissue or maybe we've pulled them around and that has caused more tissue damage. But then off the back of that, what they've learned is body work's not very pleasant. I didn't enjoy that in the moment and I felt worse off the back of it. So then that creates more of a problem in a body work setting because we're actually wanting to unwind tissue restriction. We're wanting to unwind tissue tension. And so... if we put them in a situation where we make them tense and make it worse, it doesn't get better. And also they learn that humans aren't very safe and they also learn that people aren't listening to them. Um, and people aren't respecting the fact that they are experiencing things in their own body and they are their own experts at what they're feeling in their body. It's tough. Um, So there's that piece to it, which is what does the horse learn out of it? But then the other piece is if we can help a horse to feel safe, much like humans, if we help humans to feel safe. then we have the propensity to help them to unwind their bodies quicker, more effectively. And I tend to find the relaxation piece within the bodywork session helps me to travel further with that horse than my hands have the capacity to in a session. And so the horse being OK with what's happening to them helps to unwind their nervous system, which helps everything to kind of stick. But also within that, there's a learning thing here. If that horse is cognizant of what's happening to them and on board with it, then we help them to learn how to use their body differently because they're in a relaxed state where they can kind of pay attention to the cues and pick them up. And the other thing is we can also help them to find movement patterns that they couldn't find before because of the kind of chronic tension and the psychological distress around that. So consent really... It starts for me at the kind of how do you feel about receiving touch? How do you feel about the pressure on the head collar? How do you feel when I move your body in a certain plane? Are you able to do that or not? You know, that forms part of the palpation assessment. But then also it's recognizing the discomfort in the body. And saying, I noticed that you're not OK with this. Is there a way in which we can help to relax and downregulate you for you to be OK with this so that then I can do what I need to do? And then in doing what I need to do to help you to feel better off the back of it, you really reap the benefits of it. So from a movement therapy perspective, that would be here are the deficits that I see in your body. Here are the postural things that I see in your body. But where are you at from a training perspective? Where do the problems occur for you from a training perspective? So, for example, if I have a horse with kissing spines who needs to work on their spinal range of motion and their spinal integrity, they need to go in the arena to do that, to be on a conformable surface and that is stable and allows them to move through different gates. But you take them into the arena and they're not okay with being in the arena because of all of the previous history they've had around that. I can set that exercise up for that human and their horse. But they're not going to succeed because that horse isn't consenting to what's happening to them. So we need to look at where is the horse OK and dial that exercise back and then build their threshold to it. And by threshold, I don't mean that horse kind of copes with it, but build the horse's capability to engage with the world around them. Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:58-00:45:02]
Absolutely. Absolutely. I had an experience where, so seven years ago, my mayor, she started having a lot of issues. And, um, as mentioned earlier, I tried a ton of different body work treatments, a ton of different modalities. And, um, it was always a, just, you just have to just stand here and just like, I've hired this person. They're taking the time to be here. Don't embarrass me. Like just stand here and receive the treatment. Just, you know, just get better. Like it was very, like, it was amazing. I was doing this for my horse. And the last thing that it was actually for was for my horse. You know what I mean? Like it was it was for my ego feeling like, well, we did the body work like you should be getting better. And then it was also for the person, the professional thinking, me thinking again, my ego. Don't embarrass me in front of this person. Just stand and receive it. And my my poor mare, she she just couldn't handle it. Just she did not want to receive touch. And a while later, I went and got my own I had my own massage therapy appointment and I was really looking forward to it. I was like, oh, my shoulders are super tense. My neck is bothering me. I'm really excited to just go and be on the massage table and just like relax. And the massage therapist was so focused on releasing a specific knot in my neck that for the whole 60-minute appointment, she did whatever she could to just get into that knot. And it put me into fight or flight. I went there being like, oh, I'm so excited for this. And instead, the entire time I was on the table, I was like, I got to get out of here. My system went into overdrive. My nervous system was activated. When I left and I went home, I was super reactive and cranky, and I just felt agitated, and I realized... that my body did not consent with that. And my nervous system responded accordingly. My horse did not consent with that touch and her nervous system was responding accordingly. And me as the owner standing there or her guardian standing there and saying like, just, just like receive it. Okay. Just receive it. I've booked this time slot. Like was, was, The worst thing I could have been doing. And it unfortunately did require me to experience it in my own body to really realize, but I'm glad I did because it just completely opened my eyes to realize that the body has to consent.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:04-00:48:54]
It really does. It really does. And, you know, I've I've got a fantastic therapist that I work with who treats me and something that. It kind of it always fuels my fire, having had a session with her, because whenever she feels my body start to defend. And, you know, like I paid. I want to be there. I want her to do the thing. But every time she feels my body defend, she softens up a little bit, waits for my body to relax. If it can relax and if it doesn't, she goes, oh, we're not doing this today. And then she will go in to my body's tolerance. where I can downregulate to receive that treatment and this is what I like to do with the horses and this is where the movement therapy comes in as well like even today with a horse that I was working with I started to work with him and he said oh no that area is that area is too tight there's too much motion around there I can't do that so I said okay we're just going to do some movement stuff Very slow, very gentle, very cognizant movement stuff. We're going to see where your threshold is behaviorally. How do you show up with your human? How do you respond to your human's touch? Where are the sticking points? Can we... Shine a light on those sticking points and help you guys to have more of a conversation rather than it being you screaming that you hate this and your owner screaming not to climb over the top of me. And then once we've done that, what do those tight tissues feel like? Oh, interesting. We've done some very gentle walk work. And now I can touch your neck and you're not having, you know, you're not having what I perceive to be an overreaction about it. OK, now what happens if I add some body work in? Can you receive that now? Oh, you can receive that in the lower part of your neck. But as I head up to your pole, you can't receive that. OK, well, now we've just started to build a line of communication because now I can touch you. and you understand that that touch goes away if you don't like it, rather than screaming, I hate all of this, get off of me, go away. You can say, I can tolerate this, but I can't tolerate that. And then you're hurt. And that's really empowering as well. But it's also really empowering for the human on the end of it. Rather than seeing their horse as some big inconvenience, they can start to see that someone is communicating with their horse and And they can start to adopt that communication style as well if they want to. So they can recognize that their horse has body preferences. And not only that, But that then becomes a metric for them with everything they do with their horse. Oh, this is my horse's behavior when he doesn't like something. This is my horse's behavior when he can tolerate something. This is my horse's behavior when he likes something. Now I can scale everything I do with my horse to work within what they can tolerate. And, you know, I do also believe that life happens. And sometimes we have to do things with horses that they aren't going to appreciate because management and care. And so then we can go if we spend more time working within this green zone with this horse, the time where the amber and the red zone comes in, we can where we're not thresholding them all of the time. we can then kind of go, I'm really sorry, this is going to happen. And then I will make it up to you after, you know?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:57-00:49:22]
Absolutely. I think it's so cool to like the, the empowerment piece as well for the owner to again, be able to develop an entirely different communication style with their horse. So it is more empathetic and it is more compassionate and it's more aware of And the really interesting thing about that is that then people start to develop a more empathetic and compassionate, aware relationship with themselves.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:24-00:50:18]
Yeah. And also other people. I've definitely observed people who have really good relationships with their horses from my lens of, you know, acknowledging their horse as an individual, meeting their needs and, you know, that kind of scoper thing. watching them have a or interact with other people or their significant others it's really interesting because if they have a healthy relationship with their horse they tend to have a healthy relationship with humans and vice versa if they have a healthy relationship with humans they tend to have a healthy relationship with horses there's something really fun about horses which just calls you to be a better a better person yeah i know i reflect with my horse and i think How could I have shown up differently? Oh, interesting. That feels kind of uncomfortable. Don't really love it. Looks like there is work to do. I think that's so fun.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:18-00:50:37]
Me too. Me too. I love it. I always say that my horses are like my greatest yoga teachers. They are the things that teach me how to be a better person. And like, it's not other people that teach me a better people to be a better person. It's an animal that teaches me how to be a better human, which I just I find so poetic and like beautiful.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:40-00:50:41]
Yeah, no, I do, too.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:43-00:50:56]
Can you do a little bit of shameless promotion and tell us about your online programs and webinars and all of the things that you offer that doesn't require somebody to be near you in the UK or you to travel to them?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:58-00:59:04]
Yeah, so I have my my most favorite course is the Fundamentals of Horse Posture course. This came about because I was being presented with horses that had obscure behavioral stuff going on. And I was looking at their bodies and thinking, and no one has pointed out that this horse might potentially have kissing spines or no one has pointed out that this horse's hind end posture means that they are not capable of doing this work. um and so I started to get frankly annoyed that time and time again I'm coming out and people are saying but I had the body worker you know why didn't they pick this up and I had to say because they didn't know and I'm sorry about that and it started to feel a little bit gatekeeping for me that I had information that other people could benefit from that, um, wasn't out there or was out there. But, you know, you siphon it from little bits of reading, like it's the information that I've kind of pulled together over the course of my career and combined with veterinary referrals where someone has said, oh, this is my horse. He's got kissing spines in this area. And I can look at their back and go, oh, interesting. I can see how that would work. And then kind of extrapolating that out to other horses. And also because I thought if I put this course together, and other bodywork professionals look at that course, then they can apply that to their skill set, which means that they can help more horses, which means that, you know, that then benefits more people than I can possibly contact in a day, week, year, lifetime, career. And then also I now meet a lot of horse owners who are just hungry for knowledge, which I think is really cool because, And they really want to understand their horse. And then also, I think if you can read your horse's posture, you can read the appropriateness of any exercise that you're doing with them. So this is where the fundamentals of horse posture came to be, because it was like a roadmap of how to read your horse's body and determine what that means. And then in determining what that means, you can determine what you need to do about it. Whether that is, I think my horse needs a vet, but I can't really put a finger on why. What is their posture telling me? Whether that is, I think we need to do something different with the hoof care, but I don't really understand why. Whether that is, a professional has recommended that I do this movement stuff with my horse, but it doesn't feel right. being able to put language on what they're seeing, I think really helps. So that's my most favorite course. And that's available via my website. And then my other course is the fundamentals of exercise programming. So I when I did my physio diploma, you were taught the 12 week rehab plan. And that really feels like. You know, three months to fat loss, you know, where you're kind of sold this fad, which doesn't really solve any problems and doesn't give anyone any helpful things to apply. It just puts a whopping great big sticking plaster on the undercurrent of everything else going on within the horse human relationship. And I also find that a lot of people outsource to me, what can I do with my horse? What, you know, what exercises should I be doing with my horse? How long should I be riding my horse for? And that put quite a lot of pressure on me, which I didn't love, because I felt like that wasn't my responsibility to own. That's the human's responsibility to own. You need to learn about your horse. You need to learn to recognise their posture. You need to learn to recognise fatigue. You need to learn how to teach your horse. You need to learn... How long it takes for the musculoskeletal system to adapt to stimulus. How long it takes for the nervous system to adapt to stimulus as well. I can program a load of exercises for you. But if we go back to that kissing spines example with the horse who doesn't like even being in the arena, I can't program any of that stuff for you. And also... I'm not there on the day where the horses all got stressed in the field because the hunt came past. I'm not there to say probably best to not do that today. You need to be your own expert and you need to work out what works best for you and your horse truly. So I put that course together just as a means to give people threads to pull so that they can start to be their own expert for their own horse. That has kind of the course is massive now because then off of the back of that, I started doing a monthly webinar as well, which it's different topics dependent on my inspiration that month or something that someone has asked me. And I thought, oh, that's really interesting. That could be a big topic that other people can benefit from. And then also pulling in other professionals, other experts, industry experts who I think very highly of who I think have a lot to offer the world bringing them in so a I can continue to learn because that's really important to me but b I can also expose those people to a wider audience as well so more people get the benefit of their work too and also it gives horse owners more to think about so that's my monthly webinar as well And I try to price these all accordingly because I'm also aware that horses are like a never ending pit that you can throw money into. So then it's really helping people to spend their money wisely. And then lastly, I also have a weekly email called Modern Centurion, which is really bridging the gap between. Intuition of spirituality and science as well and helping people to traverse the path in the middle. So we're not just camp science, but we're not just camp intuition. And then we can start to assess our horse from a scientific and intuitive perspective and also advocate for ourself in the middle. So in my weekly email, I tend to have a video, which will either be a bodywork technique, a training bite video. or a long format conversation that I've had with someone. And then it will be what podcast I've listened to that week that's really resonated with me, what I've read that week, whether that is a book. Not that I quite have the power to read a book a week, although, you know, I tend to read a book every 10 days. But it might be a blog post I've read or a research article I've read. And then, yeah, a couple of other bits and pieces, quote that I'm thinking about, a journal prompt as well, because I'm, a very philosophical person. So I tend to wander about in my own thoughts and think, and why do you feel like that? So if I can stimulate other people to think as well, I think that's fun too. And then also at the end of it, it's just a way to find out what I'm offering that month and a link to my courses too. And that's free just as a way to keep giving to people, you know, to keep kind of fueling the fire and, And also so much costs money nowadays and everyone's got a course. I'm guilty of it. I have two and I have a monthly webinar. But if I can just put something out there that might help someone and it be free, I also think that's worthwhile.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:59:05-00:59:57]
Absolutely. I think the idea of, like you said, being an advocate, having the information so you're well informed, you know, the sense of empowerment, all of these different things that that you are able to offer people with the courses, the webinars and even the newsletter is doing so much good for our industry. We're going to put everything that you mentioned in the show notes. So we'll have links to your Web site there. the, the newsletter to social media, all of those different things so that everybody can find you. Um, but yeah, I just, I think it's really cool. And also, um, you, you weren't necessarily apologizing, but it was like almost like, Oh, I have an, I have an online course too. You are doing so much good in the world with, with this. So do not feel like, Oh gosh, I'm, you know, also flagging the capitalism industry. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:59-01:00:48]
You're doing good with it. Thank you. I feel like this is something that I think about a lot. And I talk about with friends and colleagues because, you know, even when I do my advertising, it tends to be I'll write a post. And then at the end of it, it's like, oh, so I'm doing this thing because I don't want to. It can often feel, I think, like everyone is selling something. And I think that's amazing because there are so many people out there that have a lot to offer. But then I also know if I'm being sold to, I can feel a little bit, oh, God, you know, there's a lot and I don't want it. So, yeah, it's it's kind of nodding to I have this cool thing that I'm really passionate about. But I also don't want to ruin your day by forcing it down your throat.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:00:50-01:00:54]
From a consumer of your content, you do a really good job of balancing it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:00:55-01:00:56]
Thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:00:56-01:01:47]
I just have a couple more questions left. This one here, I actually just recently asked an osteopath that we had on, Laurie Mueller, the exact same question, because I do think it's a really important question for the bodywork industry and just the industry in general, that I just keep hearing people and witnessing that the bodywork industry can feel disheartening at times. I've had this conversation with my own osteopath and with others in the industry, you know, that I see in person. And I've been having this conversation with others that I've been speaking to all around the world as well, that it can just feel like there are so many horses with imbalances physically, emotionally, energetically, et cetera. As you've mentioned as well, what keeps you feeling inspired in this line of work?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:49-01:07:33]
I would have to start with my clients, keep me feeling inspired. And I've been doing this for long enough now and also being outspoken enough on social media that I've kind of started to attract the kind of people that I really want as clients, the kind of people who really care about their horses. And very occasionally... I might have a client stray onto my books and they are maybe there kind of unwillingly. Like a few weeks ago, I had a lady who wanted to be quite traditional, but her horse absolutely wasn't letting her. So it's kind of like, you know, I'm here and I know that you're not traditional and I I don't really love that, but my horse is forcing me down this path. So don't make it too weird, but I am listening. But aside from that, I meet some really cool people who have really beautiful relationships with their horse. And they have that because they are really seeing their horse as an individual and really trying to do what they can to help. build the relationship with their horse. So that inspires me because I'm always, I'm looking at the dynamic between people and their horses and thinking, what do I like about that? What piece of that can I carry myself? And what piece of that can I give to other people? I find that really inspiring. And then also I'm afforded the privilege of, of being able to work with really cool professionals. So when the industry feels like a really lonely place, to be able to call up other professionals or friends that you know or professionals that have become friends and just talk about a case together and say what would you do with this or how do you think I handled this can you give me scope for professional development that keeps me inspired because I think with everything I'm always looking at what was my role to play in that if it doesn't go well How did I how did I contribute to that not going well? If it did go well, how did I contribute to that going well so that I can learn off the back of it? And I really value being able to do that with other people as well. I think it's all about collaboration. And I also. I often think from a bodywork perspective. A lot of us are seeing the same things or seeing similar things or recognising similar patterns, recognising that the horse isn't OK. Maybe for some people in some situations, maybe they don't have the skill set to deal with the problem there and then, but they can see it. And so I think part of what keeps me inspired is. being able to explain to people what I'm seeing so that they can recognise that in their own horse or explain to other professionals what I'm seeing. So maybe they can see that in the horses that they are working with. And then the more that we're talking and explaining and building this narrative around the lived experience with horses, I think that also starts to have the trickle down effect of helping professionals to have an easier time of it. Because I don't work in a vacuum. There are other professionals out there. There are professionals who are far better than me. There are professionals who are up and coming. There are professionals that I learn from. There are professionals who learn from me. But if we're not all showing up, speaking that common language for the horse, it creates a bit of a rift and that can be disheartening and disempowering. So if we can all say what we're seeing in as far as reasonably possible and feel empowered that we're not the only people in the world seeing these things and feeling these things, I hope it's just I hope. Rather, it's just going to help to bring everyone together. So that's the plan. But then also what I would say in terms of disheartening, I think it's really important from a professional perspective that you have a safe place to take yourself to. So for me, my my inspiration is also my horse and being able to practice what I preach with my horse. I find that really empowering. And I also find it shines a light in the holes in my skill set. And I think, oh, there's work to do again. And that's really exciting. And that motivates me to keep seeking because you never know who you might happen across again. who is going to give you a thread to pull. You know, like I talked at the beginning of this podcast about my client who sent me the podcast about Celeste's work and me really, really hating that. But what I learned from that was rather than say, I think I'm going to hate it. No, I'm not going to watch or no, I'm not going to listen. What I learned was, I'm not going to like because there might be some truths in there that I need to hear. Also, I might just like it and it might open this whole new world of enrichment and professional development and connection as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:35-01:07:47]
Absolutely. Yasmin, we have four rapid fire questions that we ask every podcast guest. It's just like the first thing that pops into your mind. The first one is, do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:51-01:08:16]
This one is shamelessly stolen off of my friend Holly Barnett. Look after the spine and you'll be just fine. When it comes to bodywork and training, if you look after your horse's spinal integrity, I feel a lot of it, a lot of the other stuff sorts itself out within reason. But don't tell my other friend Becky Smith that because she'll talk about hoof balance and I'm inclined to agree with her in the nuances there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:18-01:08:27]
Actually, I just had Becky on the podcast, so her episode has aired, and then Holly's been on the podcast twice. So shout out to Holly and Becky and all of your good quotes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:31-01:08:38]
I have listened to Becky's episode, and that was awesome. She's such an incredible speaker. It blows my mind.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:38-01:08:45]
Yeah, yeah, it's such a good episode. The second question, who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:47-01:08:48]
Can I have three people?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:48-01:08:49]
Absolutely.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:50-01:11:13]
Yeah. So I've already spoken about all three of them. It would be Celeste with her essentially just granting me permission, working with her granted me permission to be the professional that I wanted to be in the industry. That was really empowering. And it's something that I'm really grateful for. And then Becky Smith, she's a very good friend of mine, as well as an incredible professional. And she has this never-ending pursuit of knowledge. And With that, she's always asking questions. And I feel like she and I are the perfect storm when we talk because we're always asking questions at each other and challenging everything in a pleasant way, in a philosophical way. And so she stimulates me to grow with that. because she's got this beautiful way of highlighting questions that were perhaps at the back of my mind that were a bit uncomfortable to think about. And she kind of forces me to think about it. But also, I really admire who she is as a professional and how she shows up for the horses that she works with and how she shows up for her clients. And I just find that really inspiring. You know, every time that I talk to her, I come away with more thoughts and kind of more threads to pull on, which is cool. And then lastly, Holly as well. That lady, again, another lady with absolute dogged pursuit of knowledge. Just her... Her work around the nervous system and nervous system regulation and how to show up for yourself and how to show up for the horse has just been incredible to watch her kind of unravel and be part of the things that she's discovered with that. but also has been an enormous service to me and who I am as a professional. And I'm just really grateful for her kindness in letting me be part of that as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:11:15-01:11:31]
So cool. I love that. And I love all three of them. So that's fantastic. Like, again, shout out to all three of them, Celeste, Becky and Holly. If you're tuning in, we love you. If you could give Equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:11:33-01:12:30]
I feel like this sounds contrite, but if you think there's a problem, there probably is. And with that unconditional permission to listen to yourself. I think there's a lot of disempowerment that happens in the industry. And when I meet people who are having a hard time with their horse and I explain what I'm seeing. So many people say, I thought that was a problem. Oh, you're completely right. I've been thinking this for a really long time. And I think if you'd only been empowered. You wouldn't be down, you know, you wouldn't be so far downstream having to, you know, paddle back upstream. And so, yeah, listening to yourself. There's a lot of information out there, but I also think we have this internal compass that we can follow, which will help.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:12:31-01:12:37]
Absolutely. And the final one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:12:39-01:12:40]
Coming home.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:12:41-01:13:49]
that's good I love that I've been like this weird thing where I feel like this sense of home stuff like I was putting together a playlist and so many of the songs I was putting on a playlist had to do with home and I've been like using that phrase myself so just you saying that now I'm like I feel like a zing of like isn't that interesting yeah I sit and hang out with my horse and it's like everything else stops just for you know however long I sit with her everything goes quiet and it's just like this is what it was meant to be all along none of this doing rubbish just sitting here appreciating yeah it's indescribable I love that I mentioned earlier about how we're going to link everything in the show notes, your website, your newsletter, which is included on your website. Do you want to give it any social media handles or anything like that for us to include as well?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:13:50-01:14:02]
Yeah, so I can be found on Instagram and Facebook under Yasmin Stewart Equine Physio. Awesome. And that is probably where everyone can keep up with my ongoing internal dialogue.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:14:03-01:14:05]
Awesome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:14:05-01:14:07]
This has been such a pleasure.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:14:07-01:14:30]
I really enjoyed speaking with you and then just getting this information out there because I really believe this is the, we're heading in the right direction in the industry. We just had to get more of this out there. And so I thank you so much for your work. I thank you for coming on here and for sharing it with all of us.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:14:30-01:15:02]
Thank you so much for having me. And I definitely think there's this cultural shift and it's really, really exciting. I'm seeing horses having a nicer time of it, which is great. And also I'm seeing people have a nicer time of it, which also is great. Yeah. And it's not just about the horse. Obviously, the horse, I think, bears the brunt of a lot of what humans do. But actually, if we start to deconstruct the human side of things, I think humans can have an easier time of it as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:15:04-01:15:06]
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Yasmin.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:15:07-01:15:10]
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:15:12-01:15:45]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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