#70 A Holistic Approach to Soundness with Steffi Spielhaupter

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:08-00:00:19]
You are becoming one with that animal. You want to move as one. And in order to move as one, you have to be attuned to each other. You have to be present with them.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:20-00:01:26]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. With a bachelor's and master's in equine science, Steffi has dedicated her life to helping horses and their humans build deeper, more meaningful connections. Her goal is to support you on your individual journey of conscious horse-human connection and personal growth, as well as training your eye for the subtle shifts in not only your horses, but also your own state. Steffi's passion is working with the fine nuances of your horse's soundness, including the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual states, and helping you distinguish between them, always considering the health of your horse's nervous system in the process. Since founding Science for Soundness in 2014, Steffi has worked with horse enthusiasts across the globe, using science and heart to guide them out of survival mode and into a space of trust, safety, and genuine partnership with their horses. Let's get started with the episode. Steffi, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I am so excited to just geek out with you on this topic here today. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:27-00:01:33]
Thank you so much. It's been, well, it is a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. Can't wait to dive in.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:34-00:01:44]
Awesome. So as people heard in the intro, you're an equine scientist, which sounds like super official. Why did you choose to study equine science?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:46-00:03:54]
I think the shortest answer I could give is probably helping horses. But behind that is more of a drive or I see this purpose behind it. Actually, I really want to help horses and humans connect. And I always had i don't know why but i always felt especially connected to horses and i was really lucky in that i was able to share incredible horses with some owners who let me do amazing things with these with these beautiful souls um And as we went from there, I kind of understood more and more about them. And these owners, I don't know, they saw something in me. They kind of felt like I need to be pushed into that direction. So when it came to actually deciding what to study, I first went for the conventional let's do tourism management or something like that. But then I saw I kind of tuned into myself and I realized, OK, that's probably not what's going to make me happy. And it's not what I feel called to. And then I just saw that my university offered this equine science program. So, yeah, I couldn't believe it because in Germany that wasn't a thing at the time. And I lived in the UK at that point. So I applied and they took me on and they were super hyped to have me as well. So that was really cool. finishing that bachelor's degree left me wanting more. So that's how I then decided to go on to the master's degree and do that as well. And yeah, it all just really comes from this drive to want to help horses. So I did this certification as an ESMT in the meantime, and I felt like, okay, I can help horses physically now, but that's not it. So I then put my own horse in a paddock paradise, and I created that myself. But then I realized, okay, so I changed the environment, but that's not it. So I just really wanted to dive deeper and learn more and know more about these beautiful animals. And that's led me here. So it is kind of super official. But I guess everyone who I studied with went into different directions and everyone kind of followed their own passions and pursued those. So, yeah, this is this is just what drives me, I guess.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:03:55-00:05:05]
I love that. I love, you know, when people chase their passions and don't just try to fit into a box that society tells them they have to fit into. Like, OK, go into something that is probably really easy for you to get a job in, like tourism management, like you said, or you could chase something that makes you feel alive. And I love that. I love that. I also think it's really funny when I hear you and I hear so many people say, I do this because I really wanted to help horses. And I'm like, that's really interesting because by doing this, you're also really helping people. And we'll get into that a lot here later as well, that there's so much to helping the human component to it and how when we help humans, we actually in turn help the horses. So it's like this beautiful marriage of the two. So I'm really excited to chat with you about that as well. In your intro, along with equine scientist, I also said holistic horse woman. What do you mean when you say you approach horsemanship holistically?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:05:06-00:06:49]
Okay, so I love that question because I think everything is connected. And when I say holistically, I really mean this 360 degree approach to horsemanship. And it's not just horsemanship in terms of training. Because I think in the traditional sense, or at least when I first came across that term, I was very much only used in that context. So it was always the horse in a training situation, but nothing outside of it. And I look at everything. So that includes the training. situation they're in. So their environment, their ultimate environment, but also the wider environment, the whole system, basically. It's the human that plays into it. It is the feeding regime. It's their hoof care routine. It's also, are they in a herd environment? Are they single confinement? What is the situation there? And then going through every layer and every aspect of To then make sure that the horse is sound, but also help the human be as sound as possible. You know, help both of them as possible, because I think this like 100 percent perfect is something we can throw out of the window. But this holistic approach enables us to look at where is everything connected and how is it connected and how does it affect humans? this individual's system and I think that is very unique for every horse which is why I don't like blanket statements or you know this is your five-step plan to do this it there can be a framework and a concept of something but I think still the individual should be looked at individually but holistically so with everything around them as well because it's all connected in the end.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:06:50-00:08:04]
I love that so much. And I love how you tie in the idea of soundness into it, because that's such a term that we throw around in the industry of like, is the horse sound or not? And it's always referred to, you know, of course, their biomechanics and their movement. And it's like, well, no, it's like, are they sound of body? Are they sound of mind? Are they sound of emotion? Are they sound of, you know, like... everything that 360 degree approach and and then like you said you tie in the human to it as well and their environment and all of those different things and all of that attributes to their soundness and I just when I read that I was like oh that's so good it's so good and it's just awesome but it just makes sense Right? Like, it's just one of those things where I just, I really feel like as an industry, we are doing such a disservice to ourselves and the horses when we don't look at things from that holistic perspective. So I just, that's why I love having these conversations. It's because I'm like, oh, I love meeting people like yourself that are doing the work and sharing the work and all of these things. And then platforms like this that continues to share with other people. So...

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:08:05-00:08:06]
It's just all pretty cool. 100%.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:08:08-00:08:30]
Speaking of the industry and how a lot of times we just look at one part. We just look at the hooves. We just look at if the horse is back and their spinal health is okay and things like that. We really compartmentalize things. What do you think is missing from most horse training and management?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:08:32-00:10:12]
Love that. I want to say compassion and feel. So again, compassion for the individual to be able to look at who actually is my horse and who am I actually also, because the human always comes in, like automatically comes into play with this. But to know, I always say, know your horse and And that is such an important thing, because if you just go through the motions of training or, you know, go, somebody is teaching you a lesson and telling you do this, that and the other. So they are in this frame or whatever, without understanding what's behind that or without having this feel for the animal. I think that would be able, you know, that that would change the whole industry if people would have that compassion, because, you Thinking about it, you are sitting, you are becoming one with that animal. You want to move as one. And in order to move as one, you have to be attuned to each other. You have to be present with them and have that compassion to not push them beyond their boundaries or limits even, or both. So have that compassion and also have that compassion for yourself if you're working with someone who's making you uncomfortable to say, This doesn't feel right. I don't want this for myself. I don't want this for my horse. And then stand up for yourselves in that process. So, yeah, have that compassion, because I think if we all had that compassion, there wouldn't be those welfare issues in the industry. I mean, there would still be some, but not as massive as they are. I think that would solve a lot of things.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:10:12-00:10:59]
Absolutely. I love that answer. And I completely agree with you. So when we think of, okay, so compassion for the horse and compassion for ourselves, a lot of people, they go to the barn after a hard day, a long day. They're like, ah, this thing happened to me at work. This thing happened at my kid's school. Or, you know, this person said this one thing to me and it annoyed me and da-da-da-da. I'm just going to go to the barn. I'm going to go to the barn and I'm going to work out my stress there because I love being around the horses. Do you think that's a good idea? Why or why not? And do you have any suggestions for before they walk into the barn if they've had a hard day?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:11:00-00:11:05]
Yeah. So I don't like blanket statements, like I said.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:11:06-00:11:07]
That's okay. Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:11:08-00:15:47]
But so I want to say there is a lot that is possible. pro going to the barn after you have a hard day. But, and also there are some things we want to pay attention. too so let's start with the pro why is it a good idea I think it's horses or animals in general or you know anything outside any activity that involves your whole body that involves something that is grounding such as putting you know if you're gardening putting your hands in the earth or stroking an animal brushing your horse running your your hands through their mane or something like that is a very, very grounding experience. So it can help you to regulate if you come from work in a stressed state, in a state of survival, because that's what it is in the end. So there is a lot to say for it. However, I think where we get problems is At a later stage or even in that moment with horses and humans in that context is when the human is or when you as the owner, the human, you're not aware and you're not conscious of that process going on. So a lot of people go through the motions. They're really annoyed. They go into the car. They drive to the horses. They get out and they bring all of that baggage, all of that frustration, all of that negative energy, all of the, you know, activation they're in, bringing that to the stable and like dumping it on the horses. And I say this with all the love that I have because, you know, I'm a human too. This happens to me as well. We're all just experiencing this. But becoming aware of it and then going, ah, I might not want to do that, you know, and the next time you'll catch yourself a little bit earlier. So there is a lot to say for it. And I'm absolutely pro go and ground yourself. I would say in order to avoid getting wound up and understanding what's happening. So first of all, what is happening? What is agitating you? Are you in a state that is more of a sympathetic activation? So are you in a fight or a flight response? Or are you more downregulated into a more immobile state in a shutdown response, for example, dissociated from the surroundings? That will help you understand how can I change that into being more balanced before I go to my horse. So if you are more activated, if you're very aroused and you are super annoyed and you've had an argument with your boss or with a partner or with someone, I don't know, you drive to your horse, take a moment to maybe relax. do a breathing exercise. It could be as simple as that. I personally like to do something like box breathing. So I take five seconds breathing in, five seconds holding my breath, and then five seconds breathing out again. Sometimes I also like to breathe in on five, hold for six, and breathe out on seven. The longer you can make your exhale... the more your body will downregulate into a more parasympathetic state. So you are kind of like coming down, if we want to imagine that, like coming down from that hyperarousal we've been in. So that can help you in that sort of situation. And then you can go to your horse from this more balanced state. If you are more in a shutdown response or more relaxed, down regulated more in a dissociated state or you know in like a freeze stuck in a freeze that can happen um then it would probably be good to go for a run beforehand you know do something that activates your body and brings the energy back up and fires up your nervous system in that sense So if you don't want to go for a run as you're going to your horse, which I completely understand, make it a brisk walk around the block or around the barn or something. Just don't interact with other humans and with other animals before you have done that, before you can feel like that breathing, you know, that coming in and helping yourself in that moment, basically. Yeah. by distancing yourself from other humans and animals because they will add to it normally or naturally that will happen. So these are like two things you could do. Yeah. But if that's not your thing, that's also okay. I mean, you can experiment with this and obviously everybody knows best what will help them and what would be good for you. So just play around with that and try and be playful. Don't judge. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:15:49-00:17:15]
Yeah, so important, like you had said, is to figure out what's going to work most for somebody else. And that depends on, like you said, what sort of a state that they're in, if they are in, you know, more of an upstate or if they are more of a downstate. And then depending on that, what's going to be the thing that feels best for them in their body and gets them back into their body and all of that stuff. Yeah. I think that's super important advice. I loved it all around from the texture. We lack so much texture now with our phones and our computers. We are lacking in – I mean, we no longer write with pen and paper. We text. Like, there's so many things that we don't do anymore with texture. And so, like you had said, like, having the experience of the barn where you're touching the horses and you're touching the brushes and you're touching the hay and, you know, all of those different things, there's so much that we benefit from. Yes. And also, it's important to check yourself before you go and you put it onto another sentient being. So there's so much within that that's nuanced and situational and all of that stuff. But all around, I think it's super helpful for people to have those tools in their toolkit. When you were answering that question in full, you also mentioned like a survival mode. So going into the fight or flight, going into the sympathetic state. How does somebody know if they're in survival mode themselves?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:17-00:17:18]
Just themselves, not the horses?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:17:18-00:17:21]
Yeah, just themselves. We'll do the horses after, but let's just start there.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:21-00:21:26]
Okay, sure. So for a human, if you feel, let's say you're feeling super angry, you constantly argue with someone, you are irritated at the slightest thing and you jump, you know, you want to kind of throttle someone, kind of like that, that would be you in a sympathetic activation in fight mode. And that happens, for example, when we're at work, when we're having an argument with a partner or, you know, if we're having a conversation, nuanced conversation, and instead of listening, we jump to conclusions and therefore we then jump at the other person and fight back, even though there was no call for it, that would be survival mode. I think the term survival mode kind of sounds... really like it has to be like this freakish experience but it doesn't and I think that's that's where all the nuance comes in so the fight one fight mode is is more obvious to everybody whereas all the others can be a lot more subtle so you might also be in a state of flight and this could be You know, instead of having the conversation, instead of going to this event, you avoid it by going away from the situation or by not going at all. So that could be seen as are you having this flight experience? Are you taking yourself away rather than confronting yourself because you're not resilient in that moment enough in order to face it? You could also be fawning, which is beautiful. So a lot of us do this, and I feel like a lot of women especially do this. We're such people pleasers. And I say this like that, but most people I meet have this kind of tendency to put on a good and happy face rather than saying, hang on a minute, I'm not okay with this. And that is also important. A survival response, because it makes you safe by not distancing you from others, because all we want is to be connected to others and to be safe in a herd. Right. So. Fawning is super, super interesting. People pleasing is probably one of the biggest ones. Then the freeze response is also super interesting. So instead of just being able to function, we are stuck in this frozen state where we feel possibly lethargic or we cannot function. We just like go through the motions, but we're not really there. So it's almost as though we're not really in our body sometimes. And that's called functional freeze. So that could happen. You might find yourself in a situation where you are experiencing it, but you're not really present with it. But that could also be a more shutdown state. So it's like a spectrum almost at that end, I feel. Yeah. Um, so if you're really shut down, that's probably when you, you know, you can't get out of bed in the morning. You're really struggling to start any task or finishing anything or even get the motivation to, to do something. Um, that would be probably, you know, somewhere between that and the shutdown. Yeah. Um, did I miss one out? I think, no, I think that's it. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn. Yeah. These, these would be that, that would be for the human. That's how you can, But again, this is so nuanced. So for some people, instead of going into the argument and taking yourself out of it, could also be setting a boundary. So it's not black or white. It's never black or white, which is also why I say the context really matters. And you are the only person who can know what it feels like to you and your system in that moment. So do you just say no because... That is a boundary you set and you actually went into the conversation, you set that boundary and then you're removing yourself or are you avoiding it? Are you getting away from it as fast as you can? So, yeah, it's a lot more nuanced than that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:28-00:21:35]
And so are there any examples that you can give for people to recognize that in their horses?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:37-00:21:37]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:37-00:21:39]
Like each of them, the fight, fight, freeze and flop on.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:40-00:24:28]
Yeah. So, I mean, these were like really peopley ones, but there is also people and horses and horses separated. So when we're looking at horses, if we look at the most obvious one is probably fight and flight. So the sympathetic activation, the fight mode would be a horse rearing, kicking, bucking, biting or striking out in front, you know, any kind of response that would confront you as a threat or confront a threat, right? That often happens with humans as well. Horses react like this to us. So that's where it gets really interesting with the dynamics, I feel. The flight mode is also very obvious, but can also be not as obvious. So a horse bolting would be really obvious, spooking because they saw something that is threatening or their experience is threatening. But then Flight mode could also be a horse rushing in a walk as you're riding them. And I think everyone at some point or another experience that you're riding a horse and you feel like, oh, they're like trying to run away underneath me, but they're still at a walk. or it could be trot or canter, whatever your horse is doing, but it can also be at a walk, is all I'm trying to say here, because it's less obvious then, right? It's a bit more nuanced. But it could also be during lunging. They could be running and rushing and not able to connect with the handler. When we're looking at freeze, I think that's also quite obvious. The horse stopping in their tracks and Mostly what they do is they raise the head and have this really elevated head neck position with a really tight brachiocephalic. It's like the lower neck is popping out almost. The eyes are popping out of the sockets and they have this really hollow stance, which is really distinct. Some horses look like that all the time, but freeze is this really distinct moment where they just stop and assess that stimulus that they perceive to be threatening. And then what happens most is then they like snort or, you know, poop or fart and then they do the flight response instead. But sometimes they can also be more in a shutdown, more dissociated, more depressed. Yeah, like a more permanent state. And that would then be the horse standing not as tight and elevated as it would be in a freeze response, but mainly they're just kind of like not present. So you feel like they're shut down, they're dissociated, they're not in their body in that moment. And we find, that's quite sad, actually. We find a lot of horses that are called to be super with kids and everything else.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:28-00:24:29]
The bomb proof.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:30-00:26:54]
Yes. It makes my heart hurt so much because they are most of the time they are like really, really shut down horses and they were taken away the chance to have a voice. And, you know, I'm all here for giving horses a voice, but then that's also what happens on the other end of that stick is, is horses being shut down, you know, by humans through training, whatever, through experiences. And, and they're just there, but they're not really there. They're like zombies, almost just empty shells. And it sounds really harsh, but, I think, yeah, you instantly knew what I meant. So the shutdown horses, you will be able to tell. They're just like going through the motions, but they're not really engaged and interacting with you. Like they're not connecting properly. Then fawning in horses is also super interesting because what we have is something that looks possibly really similar to relaxation and that I think makes it so not dangerous, but it's so easy to misunderstand the signals. So that's why we have to look at the whole picture and the whole context and where is the horse at in that moment and what are they doing and, you know, what led to this moment and dissected because signals such as licking, chewing, yawning, excessive eye blinking, lowering the head, that could all be actual fawning towards us and our training rather than them calming in that moment and relaxing into it. So I think the most common example is probably a round pen, sending a horse in the round pen, waiting for them to lower the head and kind of like try and approach you. These are calming signals, like the horse is actually trying to say to you, please, can you stop this? I am super stressed out right now. I mean, this is like really late times. I'm putting words in their mouth, but... I think the message is, can this stop? Because it feels frightening. I'm not safe. What do I have to do in order to be safe? And that has nothing to do with being friendly or nice to the horse, I think. So, yeah, a lot of nuance. But, you know, it's very individual. Again, we always have to look at the individual horse and what their go to response is.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:26:56-00:27:55]
I have a question regarding like the freeze disassociation state. I feel like I've seen a lot of times within the industries that somebody will have a horse that's, you know, been in a free state for a very long time. They're very disassociated horse. They are that bomb proof kind of a good boy, good girl. And and then they start working them through some things and the horse comes out of it. And it's the human was not expecting it. And suddenly they've gotten more horse than they were expecting on in their hands. How often do you see that sort of thing? What do you recommend? How do you work through that? Because it's almost like they go like a 90 degree, like full shift, you know, to something else. Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:27:57-00:28:14]
Oh, that's such a good point because that happens a lot. And, you know, imagine being shut down the whole time and then all of a sudden somebody is asking you, but how are you really? And you've never been asked that question before. And all of a sudden you kind of stop and go, huh, wait a minute.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:14-00:28:16]
What? Like, I'm actually really not good.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:28:16-00:30:15]
Like, am I even, you know? Yeah. So, so that's, that is something that happens a lot. And I think the advice I would give is, um, try and not push too far all the time. So instead of going, we mean well, I think humans mean, I have this belief that everybody has good intentions and means well with horses in the first place, at least. So, so I think people mean well by wanting to help these horses come out. I think it's really important to have boundaries and, So just because they're bomb-proof and they are very calm and all of that at the beginning, you know, you want to make sure that you're always, your yes is always a yes and your no is always a no. And you stick with that because what we often find is people kind of become a bit, you know, they want to be nice to the horses and the poor horse and, Okay. And then what happens a little bit further down the line is the horse didn't ever get this like framework or guidance from the owner, from the person. And, you know, they've been made awake. They're asked to wake up from that state. But they're not given the guidance system in order to be safe. So it feels really threatening on the other end of the spectrum and completely overwhelming. And they're probably completely far out of their window. You know, instead of being down that window, they're like through the roof. So I would say do baby steps, but have that framework. Have your yeses always be yeses, your noes always be noes. Be very clear with your body language, with yourself. Yeah, just be clear in that, because that would help the horse already to feel safe with the human as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:15-00:30:17]
I love that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:17-00:30:21]
And from there, you could just trickle out into all other aspects, I guess.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:21-00:30:40]
Absolutely. I once heard... Clear is kind. And I use that all the time. I mean, I use that with my husband, with everything. Clear is kind. It's kinder to me and it's kinder to the other person or animal. The more clear we can all be.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:41-00:31:06]
You just know what you get and you know what you're in for. Because if, you know, for people, it's the same thing. If I have to keep guessing what your next move is going to be, I'm going to be like at the edge of my seat going, oh, my God, what's next? And that's also sending me in this survival mode. So the same kind of happens for our horses, obviously differently. But, you know, it's the same context. It's the same kind of thing.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:07-00:31:12]
Absolutely. Why do you think so many people and horses are in survival mode?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:15-00:31:18]
I could go so many different directions.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:18-00:31:20]
Wherever you want to go, we'll go there.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:20-00:33:52]
Again, I think one of the biggest factors, and I say this a lot, so we'll stick with this. It's harmless. Anyway, the one thing that I think everyone has in common and the horses have in common as well as we go through this system, you know, the people education system, so kindergarten, school system, and then university, which is a bit more relaxed i would say but you know the school system you spend a lot of time in that system that society kind of created for you to go through in order to be um i don't even know how to call it but in order to fit in and to to swim with the crowd let's say that so in that system just human speaking, in that system, we aren't allowed to, for example, go to the bathroom if we need to go to the toilet. We have to sit still. We have to raise our hand. We have to ask permission to do basic needs or drinking water. It would often not be allowed to have a glass or a bottle of water on the table. You have to wait for break time. So you're kind of getting pressed into this system, into this pattern almost to fit in with everybody else and slowly but surely over time you are re-educated to not be the one swimming against that stream, right? You are the one, you have to, like, everyone has to go in that same direction. And I think that takes away a lot of individuality. That takes away a lot of purpose. We spoke about it at the beginning. That also takes away a lot of, yeah, the things that motivate us and make us us and unique. Because we're all like pressed in the same kind of mold. And for people that could be I mean, there are so many other factors, but I think everyone has that in common to some degree. And I think that could be traumatizing for people, you know, either waking up afterwards and realizing I wasted my entire life doing something that I hate. And just because I was told this is what I'm supposed to do or, you know, it could be entering a relationship because you thought you had to stay with the first person that felt OK and you didn't look for someone who felt more safe or, you know, whatever. So so there is that side of things. So we all kind of get is that a word normed?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:33:54-00:33:54]
We'll make it a word.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:33:55-00:35:09]
We make it a word. Yeah, like we all get normed in that way. So we all get like it's like one big soup and we're all in it, basically. And there are a few people who kind of stick out and fall through the net, but most of them just go with that. And then for the horses, it's pretty much the same thing. They're put in environments that for a lot of horses feel alien. They're taken away from their mothers way too early, put in a schooling system or something that just doesn't serve them, doesn't serve their unique needs. And we're taking away their voices, much like with humans. So what that does is, yes, you're adapted to the world that you're living in, but it also makes you different. you know, have to fit in. And the moment you don't fit in anymore, you start to like bump up against something or, you know, hit a speed bump or even a wall. It kind of depends on the severity of it. But I think that's a lot that, yeah, that would be like one big thing that horses and humans have in common. It's the systems that we go through. And thinking about it, who says that six months is the right time to take a foal away from a mother and then to put them in training when they're one? Who? Who?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:09-00:35:43]
ever thought about that like why does that make sense because i don't see how it makes sense but we just go with it because that's how it's done so that creates a lot of problems further down the line and health issues and other things of course but yeah i could talk about this all day i look at me like getting all ranty i love this conversation Me too. Can you explain what a ventral vagal state is and why it's important to source people?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:44-00:41:25]
Sure. So the ventral vagal state or ventral vagal branch is something that comes from the polyvagal theory. That is a theory coined by Dr. Stephen Porges. And what it is, is basically a theory of teaching us how to... Well, how we and our nervous systems function and interact with the world around us. And it's a theory of safety and connection, which is why I love it so much, because it helps, you know, looking through that lens helps to understand so many things in relationship context. And it's not just with the horses, but it's also with humans, dogs, you name it. And the ventral vagal state is basically stems from the distinction between the parasympathetic nervous system being split in two branches. So let me go back a bit. So When I was at school, I learned that the autonomic nervous system was two branches or two systems. We have the sympathetic nervous system and we have the parasympathetic nervous system. Sympathetic nervous system is the fight or flight response. And the parasympathetic nervous system is the one that's associated with rest and digest and low heart rate and that sort of stuff. So with this theory we are looking at the parasympathetic nervous system and we don't just say it's rest and digest it is also split into two and we call it the ventral vagal state or branch and the dorsal vagal state or branch why vagal because it's kind of leaning on the vagus nerve and focusing around that and the role in the body which is super interesting in itself So, the dorsal vagal branch we actually spoke about already, that would be the shutdown response, so a more immobilized state. Whereas, and that's where it gets really interesting, the ventral vagal state or branch... is also called the social engagement system. And I think that clues us a lot for what it is and what it does. It's basically the state that we're in when we feel safe, when we feel connected, when we feel grounded and present in our body. It is the state in which we can interact with the world around us. So if you're not feeling safe, you're not going to venture out of your comfort zone and do stuff. You're going to remain tucked away. But there's also this state in which we can learn and have access to our brain and, you know, all of these things. And that's why it's so important to understand for horse owners, because if you're working with your horse and it doesn't matter if it's just an everyday interaction or if it's a training session, whatever it is, if you are in this social engagement system, so in this ventral vagal state or branch state, If your horse is in that state, they are able to connect with you. You are able to get closer to them without making them feel unsafe. So it basically is everything we need in order to help them learn and help them thrive. Yeah. So knowing that is super important so that when they come out of their window of tolerance, for example, when they fall into survival mode, we can then help them regulate back into this social engagement system and then come back to this balanced state, this equilibrium. I do want to say, though. Because now everybody goes, oh, OK, so the goal is to stay in this state the whole time. And wouldn't that be amazing? And yes, it would be. But that shouldn't be the goal. Like, I mean, yes and no. So everybody then wants to shield and shelter their horses from stress or possibly traumatic experiences or possibly, you know, scary big things. But that's not a way to go because all that does is going to make your world really, really, really small and smaller and smaller. And we see this a lot in humans as well with, you know, people and their children, for example, with loved ones. You want to protect them. And I get that. But it's not going to help them to shield them from the danger or the stress or the stressful, potentially stressful event. You kind of want to experience it to a degree and then learn to come back to this balanced state, to the social engagement system or ventral vagal state. And therefore, you're building your resilience. And that's kind of what it's all about. So you can be in the discomfort zone. you know in a state of discomfort like me having a podcast interview I mean this is a lot for me you can see it in my face no it's fine it's it's natural it's that's the thing like it's natural it's it's me leaning out of my comfort zone because I'm not staying hidden behind my computer or behind my phone I am putting myself on a sit deliberately actually I love this by the way So I am putting myself in a situation where I feel safe enough, but also stretched because it is a lot for me to talk in front of other people or, you know, being on a stage at an event or having a podcast interview with people seeing my face going red or hearing me or you can even hear it in people's voices. So that's why it's so important to understand what it is, what it means and how we can work with it in order to help not just the horses, but ourselves really too. always regulate and co-regulate back into this connected safe state and you're helping by the way so thank you

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:29-00:41:45]
quick side note um so as as you can see i'm very blonde and i'm very fair um my my lineage is norwegian and um my nickname in school was tomato because like everything makes me turn red just Thanks.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:45-00:41:52]
I have dark hair, though, but my skin is also very fair. So as soon as somebody says something, it makes me blush.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:53-00:41:55]
I'm the same way. I'm the same way.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:55-00:42:48]
It's okay. I wear it with pride because I am, you know, that is something we should be proud of, leaning out of that window of tolerance, leaning out of that comfort zone. Yeah. putting ourselves in situations that stretch us a little bit but also and that is where the learning happens right because you're helping because you're you're calm and you're grounded and that's cool um so it's nice to have someone to bounce back and forth with but it also helps with the learning experience afterwards i'm going to feel so good because i didn't die I didn't die doing it. And next time I'll feel better. And the time after that, I'll feel more confident. And the more I do it, the more confident I'll get. And the same goes for horses as well. We can't expect miracles just from like one session. It has to be built. And you're helping them build it by being in this state with each other.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:52-00:44:37]
It's conversations like this that excites me so much because it's I could have brought you on and only spoke specifically about the horses, and we never discussed the human side of it. Or my next podcast guest, I could only ask just very specific horse-related questions and nothing about equestrians themselves or anything like that. And one of the things... I've noticed in myself and in so many others is that we constantly put the horse's needs in front of our needs. We're always like, oh, my horses need these supplements. So I'm going to I'm just going to like reduce how much money I spend on my own groceries, you know, so they get better. or God, I haven't had a massage in years, but my horse gets regular body work. Like it's, we're always putting so much on our horses, which is incredible and amazing. And it's so lovely that as you know, we are willing to do that. And we also need to be filling our own cups in order to show up as, you know, better humans for our horses and just for ourselves in our own lives. And so it's, it's conversations like this, that it's, And acknowledging how, like I said at the very beginning, it's a marriage of the two. In order to help your horses, we have to help ourselves. And bridging those two things together where here's these things that you can acknowledge in your own horse and here's how you can help your horse and, you know, do a service for them. And here's also the things to acknowledge in yourself and how to help yourself and move through these different states as well for the health of your own, the health and quality of your own life. Yes, as well. So I just I think these conversations are so important. And I'm just I'm so glad that we talk about these.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:38-00:45:30]
But I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, I could talk, you know, I could talk hours on this, but I get I can get really nerdy. I can dive deep in all the different angles. But yeah, I think it's so important because. I feel like society has this tendency to see things separate. So we want to separate the mind from the body, but it's not. It's one. And the moment we start separating is where problems start arising because, you know, systems are out of balance, all of that. And it sounds so much more woo than it actually is. It's just... We know now that everything is connected in so many more ways than we did know 10 years ago, you know, when I went to do my undergrad. So that is really important. And the more people know, the more people will start asking questions. And the more people ask questions, the more answers they're going to find that will help themselves and also their horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:31-00:45:48]
Absolutely. Steffi, I've been asking all of our podcast guests this because it's something that I just think is really important and relevant to the industry right now. What is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:48-00:47:23]
Oof. I would say my hope is that it goes more towards compassion and understanding. So instead of trying to eliminate behaviors and deem them as rude or pushy or whatever it is that we label them, to understand the root causes of it and understand how we can help the horse recover. move through that like we just spoke about um in order to then make better partners as well because the thing that everybody keeps forgetting is a horse that is in balance that is sound you know not just in body but also emotionally speaking or mentally speaking or spiritually speaking even a horse that is sound all around will also shine um and i say that because they will they will Everybody will agree like a horse that feels good in themselves. They just shine and a horse that shines and gets the attention they need. And also, yeah, it has the level of understanding that they deserve. They will also be better performers. So if you want to do competition with them. Do that by all means. But by giving your horse that voice, that autonomy, that that degree of, you know, I see you, I feel you. How can I help you? What do you need? That will help us have better performance as well. So for the industry as a whole, compassion and understanding. But I think there is so much more potential behind that as well. Once we get that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:25-00:47:27]
Absolutely. It goes right back to the idea of the holistic horsemanship.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:28-00:48:23]
yeah well it could be anything else we have four rapid fire questions that we ask every podcast guest it's just like the first thing that pops into your head the first one is do you have a motto or a favorite saying know your horse i like that yeah who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey I can't answer that with one word, but I can tell you it's been the owners that really saw the potential in me, that really saw that I had feel for the animals and helped me progress in that direction rather than sticking me or telling me to go into this more traditional riding setting where there's 10 people in an arena doing the same thing behind that. So I think the owners that saw the potential in me, they really unlocked that path for me.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:24-00:48:32]
Hmm. It's very cool. I love that. I love the idea of like seeing something in somebody else and activating it. It's so cool.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:32-00:48:34]
It was. I'm so grateful to them.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:36-00:48:39]
If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:42-00:48:55]
Listen to your intuition. Your body knows so much more than you think. If it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't look right, if it doesn't sit right with you, don't do it. Listen to that gut instinct.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:56-00:49:02]
Absolutely. And the final one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are... Magic. Magic.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:06-00:49:18]
They are magic, though. I love horses so much as individuals, as a species. I love what they help us do and be and achieve. I think that's so inspiring. So horses are magic.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:19-00:49:26]
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Sepi, where can people find you? How can they connect with you? Tell us all the things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:26-00:50:43]
Cool. So you can hop on either Instagram at Science for Soundness or you can head over to my website at www.scienceforsoundness.com. I have an Inner Circle membership where we talk about all of these topics and more in more depth where there is a lot of access. Well, there is access to all of the programs that I've ever done on exactly these topics that we covered here today and more. So if people want to hang out in this space, it's a safe space away from social media. It's where we share, where we connect, where we grow with regular live calls. That's probably the coolest space to hang out in, I think. So if you feel like diving into this, you can hop in for a month, see what it's like. And if you don't like it, you can leave us again. But yeah, the website should give you a pretty good overview over all of the things, answer some more questions maybe. And you could always reach out. There is a contact form so you could do that. And if you feel like booking a clinic, there's also that. So I would be more than happy to come to your place and host, you know, if you want to host a clinic there, I would be more than happy to come and go through all of this with you and your horse's life where you feel safe and comfortable.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:44-00:50:57]
Amazing. So I'll put everything in the show notes so people can find your Instagram, your website, and I'll also put the Inner Circle membership link in there as well. So if you're listening, you just have to scroll down to the show notes and you can find all the things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:58-00:51:05]
Thank you so much for having me. It's been so beautiful speaking to you and being allowed to dive into all of these topics.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:51:05-00:51:49]
I echo the exact same thing. It was an absolute pleasure speaking with you. I'm sure our audience will get so much from it. And I know I have. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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