#3 Philippe Karl - Founder of the Ecole de Légèreté

This transcript was created by AI and has not been proofread

[SPEAKER 2]Hi everyone, this is the Equestrian Experience from wehorse, the online riding academy. My name is Christian Kroeber and this is our first ever podcast episode. Every two weeks, I sit down with trainers, experts, horsemen and women from all over the world to talk about horses, training and the passion for the sport. Today, we’re going to kick things off in our inaugural episode with Karen Rolfe. Based in Ocala, Florida, she uniquely connects horsemanship with dressage and she developed her own training philosophy. We’re going to talk about that and much more, so let’s get things started. Hi Karen.

[SPEAKER 1]Hi Christian, it’s good to be here.

[SPEAKER 2]Pleasure to have you on the podcast. It is actually our inaugural episode and it’s with you. Such a pleasure.

[SPEAKER 1]I’m honoured, definitely.

[SPEAKER 2]We’re going to talk about you, your philosophy and dressage naturally. Many people know you. You have been recently added to our team of trainers on wehorse.com. We published a course with you. Dressage naturally helps your horse become a better athlete. And you are a dressage trainer and you are also from the horsemanship world. What is dressage naturally?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, dressage naturally really seeks to create stronger partnerships and healthy biomechanics. And we do this by combining the principles of horsemanship with the art of dressage. So it’s really the best of both those worlds is my goal. And another big part of it is empowering riders to enjoy the process of learning with their horses. So it’s very focused on helping riders to be able to get the most out of their experience and make the most progress, even if they’re home by themselves without an instructor.

[SPEAKER 2]So it’s focusing also on the journey, not only on the results, the end results that could yield ribbons or other things, but it is the journey, the journey together.

[SPEAKER 1]Absolutely. And I mean, really, with horses, that is what it’s all about, right? Because horses are in this moment and we have to be in this moment with them. And and I found that self-doubt, self-doubt and trying to get things, quote unquote, right, is a big roadblock for students. And so I really seek to help them feel what’s going on in the moment, trust their feel and to know what questions to ask themselves so that they can help find the answer and by doing this I feel like I can get people about 80% on target at least with nobody else there just by empowering them to really observe what’s going on, have some self-awareness and get a little more confidence.

[SPEAKER 2]And I mean self-awareness is a great topic because it just over the past years really got into also the equestrian space. And I think self-awareness these days is almost mainstream, right?

[SPEAKER 1]I hope so. I mean, you know, here we are. To be aware of ourselves and what we’re doing, the cause and effect of what we’re doing is everything. I mean, it’s like this is where our horses live and they’re seeing us do stuff. and trying to figure out what the heck we’re trying to do. So I think we need to be aware of this. And, you know, there’s that quote or phrase, the best, the best kept secret is between a rider and his horse. So there’s there’s been lots of times that I’ve experienced and I’ve seen students experience. They might be maybe having a less than lovely moment with their horse, the horse is leaning on them, or they know that they’re using too much leg and their trainer says, good, you know, cause it looks good. And in those moments, then the rider is being taught to like something that doesn’t feel good between the horse and the rider. And so my priority is to get the horse and the rider communicating and on the same page. And then from that place, then a trainer can come in and say, hey, you know, a little more energy or a little more bend. But what’s really important, and this is the part that I think students can do, is to understand, hey, I just asked my horse for something and it didn’t work out the way I wanted it to. I can tell, you know, how can I make the very, very simple things work more easily between me and my horse? And when we get the harmony between the horse and the rider, then it’s easier to teach that horse and rider. And I think because I focus really on holding a microscope up to those conversations and those communications, they’re very basic. So they’re fairly easy to improve as long as the rider’s trust.

[SPEAKER 2]And also quite easy to pick up, right?

[SPEAKER 1]Yes. Yeah. So that’s, I, I, you know, I kind of teach the whole range from, you know, horsemanship all the way up to, you know, Grand Prix dressage if you want. Um, but I really focus on the quality communication and the trust between the rider and the horse, the harmony, because I find at the upper levels, some, many of the problems can be traced back to disharmony and something very, very basic. And I try to help students get that excellent.

[SPEAKER 2]Is this also the point where the horsemanship aspect is added to the equation?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, it’s hard for me to pull out the different pieces, really, because they’re so intertwined. But if we had to start somewhere, it has to start, for me, with the horsemanship and the relationship the trust, the attitude that the rider has for the horse and the horse has for the rider. And that starts, I tell people, it starts with how you think about your horse before you even go see him. And then it continues to, what does your horse think when he sees you coming? And let’s start there. And when you start prioritizing that kind of harmony and that kind of relationship with your horse, it has to kind of pull through everything, you know, cause if you have a great relationship with your horse, but then you’re wrestling with them for a half pass, it’s like, it won’t feel good. It won’t feel right. You have to go, wait a minute. Why am I wrestling? And maybe it started with just, Oh, my horse is a little crooked or I’m a little crooked, or maybe it started with, it took me an hour to catch him in the pasture. So that’s a really, I really like to step out and see the whole big, big picture.

[SPEAKER 2]Do you also have the feeling that our equestrian world is changing in that regard, that maybe 10 years ago looking at those problems from the angle you just talked about maybe wasn’t that accepted and now other arguments are also allowed in the discussion and maybe even propelling the entire thing?

[SPEAKER 1]Absolutely, because I know when I first started, you know, I was a dressage trainer. And then when I started sticking my toes in the water of horsemanship stuff, I mean, it wasn’t really well received in my dressage circles. You know, they said, oh, she’s crazy or that’s stupid stuff. Or, you know, I never had heard the word horsemanship or natural horsemanship and dressage in the same sentence before. So, you know, this was back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And, you know, I was really felt like an oddball. I didn’t fit in the dressage world anymore and I didn’t really fit in the natural horsemanship world. And but I just kept going because I saw it working. And so these days, I’m so happy to see so many people doing doing dressage and talking about the partnership and displaying it. And it’s much more welcoming to have a horsemanship trainer, you know, at least to start the young horses or to help problem solve. It’s not seen nearly as strangely as it was back when I started it.

[SPEAKER 2]And I think we have also seen that at the Olympics, by the way, because the gold medalist, Jessica van Bredevendel from Germany, in her first interview, she didn’t emphasize that she had the greatest victory in her career. She emphasized the relationship to her horse. And I found that striking because probably 15 years ago, everyone would have said, yeah, we won the gold medal. No, she said I was in perfect harmony with my horse.

[SPEAKER 1]I love that. Yeah, I love that. And I think, you know, I think horsemanship and getting good results with horses has to go together, but it sort of wears our attention. You know, because there’s some, you know, when we can still read Xenophon and, you know, hear what he has to say, it’s very horsemanship. So I think this is all coming for full circle, but it’s, it’s sort of what’s in the forefront of people’s awareness. And what are you prioritizing? I think that’s the difference is when things are not going well, what do you prioritize and how do you handle that problem? And so I love that you just gave that story because here’s an example of something that did go well. And that was her first thought was the harmony. And it just makes sense that if there’s more harmony, you ought to be getting better results if the judges are looking for the right things.

[SPEAKER 2]On Sunday, September 12th, we are hosting the amazing WeHorse Online Festival, a digital event dedicated to connect you with the best trainers in the world. So get ready for Olympic gold medalist Ingrid Klimke, equine therapist and the founder of the Masterson Method, Jim Masterson, classical dressage trainer Anja Baron from Germany and also Karen will be on board. Each session features a presentation followed by a live Q&A. It is live, it is interactive and it’s for free. You can claim your seat on wehorse.com slash festival-us. wehorse.com forward slash festival-us. Sunday, September 12th, 10 a.m. ET. More information wehorse.com slash festival-us. You already mentioned it, you are coming from the dressage world, and you started riding when you were 12 with your first horse, Chessie, right?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, I started riding way before that, but that was my very first horse.

[SPEAKER 2]It was your first own horse, basically?

[SPEAKER 1]Yes. Okay. Yeah, my mom had a horse when I was like seven, and so I used to go play around and ride him. And then I did, you know, summer camp and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER 2]The usual stuff when you do and love horses and you’re young, right?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah. Yeah. And a pony club.

[SPEAKER 2]And how did that develop then?

[SPEAKER 1]The well, I did. Yeah, it was a real backyard. In fact, my mom was just a backyard rider, and she insisted that I learned how to ride bareback before I could ride with a saddle. And I, you know, I’m glad I survived. She used to send me down like, here, go, go warm up Bart for me. Like I was all by myself, the 16 to hand horse. But, you know, it worked. So I started very natural and very much just a kid in love with horses. And then, yeah, finally my parents gave in and I got my own horse when I was 12 and did pony club. And then we were on a fox hunt that our pony club was invited to go on. And my horse took off, ran through the hounds. I was completely, oh yeah. I remember looking down cause ragdolling at this point, I was so exhausted. And I remember thinking, this is against the rules. I could cut right through, I’m thinking, turn my horse, he’s taking off. Yeah, he passed everybody, I turned right through the hounds and the huntsman had to like gallop up next to me and grab my horse. I was completely out of control. And he marched me up to my mom and said, take this girl for dressage lessons so she can learn how to control her horse. And so she did. And that’s how I started dressage.

[SPEAKER 2]Okay, and you’re now based in Ocala, Florida, which is also one of the hubs and centers of the equestrian world. But are you also from Ocala?

[SPEAKER 1]No, I grew up on Long Island in New York.

[SPEAKER 2]Yeah, which is completely different, right?

[SPEAKER 1]It is. It is completely different. Yeah. And I worked out of a facility called Null Farm, run by Anne Gribbins, who’s one of our top judges and trainers. So she lived in New York and now she has a place in Oviedo, Florida. But yeah, I was with her for, gosh, 25 years or so as a student and then a trainer alongside of her.

[SPEAKER 2]And I think Anne has been also a great influence on your career.

[SPEAKER 1]Oh my gosh, yes. I mean, she taught me and my second horse, my thoroughbred, um we that’s the one that I did young riders with four years and I mean she taught me how to ride she taught me how to train and she taught me how to teach she was so generous with her um time I mean I remember when she would go away she’d leave me her horses to ride and now looking back I’m like I didn’t know what I was doing I mean you know, relatively, but she was so supportive of young riders. So she gave me so many great experiences. And even when I started going into natural horsemanship and I’d come back and be, you know, here I am at her dressage facility and I’m one of her top trainers and I’m riding around bareback and bridalist and she was open and she would ask questions. And I was she and while everybody else was often looking, giving me funny looks. So I was really grateful that she allowed me that because I know a lot of my students report that they’re not allowed to do stuff like that at the dressage facility where they board. So she’s and was very, very open, even though she probably thought I was crazy. But she’s you know, she knew me well enough to know that if I was doing it, there must be something to it. And even too recently, she had a horse in her barn that was a very challenging horse and ready to be put down. And she called me and she’s like, you know, can you take this horse? So we still have a great relationship to this day.

[SPEAKER 2]So she has been one of the great facilitators also of your philosophy eventually.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, I mean, I think in that she didn’t shut me down, you know, she and I and you know, I was on track to be a judge. I had done the L judge program and passed with distinction and I was accepted into the small R judge program here and I’d done. just about all the training. And I just, I realized it’s not really what I wanted to do. I love the education, but I didn’t want to be in the box. So I remember telling her, you know, I don’t really want to be a judge and she’s a great judge. So I think she was very disappointed, but she never told me that. She just said, it’s a shame because you’d be a great judge, but she was supportive. You know, I started taking lessons with her when I was 15. So she’s a pretty big influence on my life. So you think of her as a not only as a great teacher and trainer and writer, but as a mentor, like she could have really shut that down or made me feel bad about this weird direction I was going. But she didn’t. So I’m very appreciative of that.

[SPEAKER 2]And that you just rode bareback and didn’t really bother about the rules back then, especially in a dressage barn. I have been a dressage rider myself. I know how strict these rules sometimes can be. You were a complete outlaw, but you have been supported by Anne to keep going. And how did you add this horsemanship twist eventually? When did that happen? in in the following.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, that happened when one of my kind of a sad story, but one of my students had died and she willed me this horse that she had. And this horse, when she bought it was she was a very timid rider. So this is a he was pre Saint George at the time that she got him. And he was pretty, I’ll say, bomb proof. But really, he was shut down. So I have this 13-year-old pre-St. George horse who’s very shut down. I mean, when he came, it was like double bridle draw reins, two whips and spurs, and he’d be like, all right, I’ll let you move me around. You know, he was shut down. So, you know, I started on this project of like, you know, let’s get him livened up and let’s get him in the snapple. And so, He had also been having some soundness problems. And at this facility, there wasn’t a lot of fields or turnout or things like that. So I thought I need to figure out something kind of fun and cute and easy for this horse to do to make his life a little bit interesting. And I stumbled across a flyer for a Pirelli clinic. And I went and I saw horses standing on pedestals. I’m like, OK, that looks silly and fun and easy for this, you know, used up Grand Prix. And I ended up getting him to Grand Prix, but he’s, you know, kind of used up having some unsound soundness problems. And at that clinic that was with one of the Pirelli’s instructors, David Litchman, it was just a basic horsemanship clinic. And I learned things that I had never heard of before. And I found things, I found tensions in this horse that I didn’t realize were there. I thought he was just shut down, but he was actually, it was actually tension and I never would have described this horse as tense. So during these three days, I found a level of relaxation with the horse and he just, I saw the light bulb starting to go off and his eyes brighten up. And so that was it. I thought, I got to know more about this. You know, a little information is more dangerous than none. So I just started learning more and doing more with this horse. And and it it not only gave me some techniques to try to draw out the mental emotional part of this horse, but it started reminding me of how it felt to be with my horses when I was a kid. It was giving me permission to have that relationship that I think I had turned off when I became, you know, professional. I stopped doing the silly stuff. I stopped, you know, when you’re training everybody else’s horses, you have to be, I don’t know, a little bit disconnected. when they’re not your horses.

[SPEAKER 2]So here I was- On a professional level, right?

[SPEAKER 1]Right, right. So here I was with my own horse again, and I was starting to be able to like do bareback and liberty and, you know, stuff I used to do just as a kid. And I saw it not only feeling better for me, but I saw the light go off in his eyes. I mean, on. I saw the twinkle in his eyes come back. I saw him start to offer me more in his dressage with less effort. And I went, oh, wait a minute, what is going on here? Because I just, I wasn’t trying to do that. I was trying to just do something silly and fun for the horse and it was affecting his dressage. And I went, okay, this is all starting to make sense with my thoroughbred that did young riders and how he had gone above and beyond the call of duty. He was a seven-year-old hunter jumper horse with a bowed tendon who didn’t pass the veterinary exam for dressage. You know, he’d ended up going up and doing young rider championships for years. And, and I always thought, gosh, what a special horse that horse was. And now here I was with this Grand Prix horse, this shut down horse. And all of a sudden he’s starting to do all this really special stuff and offering things, you know, at this point in his career, more willingly than ever. And I, and that’s when all the dots connected. I said, I see what’s going on here. It’s the relationship. that has to be there. And that there’s actually techniques to bring that out.

[SPEAKER 2]And this is eventually the foundation of what we now call your philosophy, dressage naturale. And then in 2003, just to finish this part off, you came to Florida to Ocala. probably as the majority of people, how they came to Florida just for the winter time, but you ended up staying for good.

[SPEAKER 1]I came for two months and I never left.

[SPEAKER 2]Really?

[SPEAKER 1]I did. I came for two, I was supposed to be gone for two months and after six weeks I called home and I went, not coming home.

[SPEAKER 2]I’m not going to come back.

[SPEAKER 1]I had my horse, I had my dog.

[SPEAKER 2]Sunshine all year and no snow.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, yeah, and that was another just, I came because a student of mine had come here, and so I, you know, leased some stalls at a barn near her. and it just happened to be seven miles down the road from where the Pirellis have their place.

[SPEAKER 2]Linda and Pat Pirelli, who are now divorced, but back in the day, they were still to date the headquarter of Pat Pirelli Natural Hospital.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, they have a place in Colorado and a place here in Florida, which I didn’t even know. So I came here and then my friend David Litchman, who was a Pirelli instructor, he was here in Florida and he literally I mean, he literally like dragged me. He’s like, you got to meet Pat Linda. I’m like, I don’t have time for this. I’m doing my dressage training. And yeah. And he’s like, no, you really got to meet them. So I went over there and I ended up being able to bring a horse to I think it was Linda’s Linda’s class. And then when I was there, Pat invited me to study with him. I think they realized how unusual it was for a dressage professional to be that interested in what they’re doing. So they were also very, very generous. I mean, I was I’ve been very lucky. They I mean, to invite me to, you know, stay the summer and play, you know, with them, with one of my horses and and then also to follow them to Colorado. So I was I was free. I’m like, sure. I got nowhere to be, so I followed them to Florida and then followed them, I mean to Colorado and then back to Florida and then ended up just buying my own place and doing my own thing.

[SPEAKER 2]The Taminos Fields.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, Taminos.

[SPEAKER 2]Taminos. But it is actually, there is a special story behind that, isn’t there?

[SPEAKER 1]The word, the word Taminos. Yeah, it’s a, I first heard that word in a book that I was reading called Free Play, and it’s a book by Steven Nakamanovich. And it’s, he’s an artist, so it’s very about the artistic creation, the process of that. And so I do a little artwork. So I was reading this book, and he said that before he created any artwork, he would set the temenos. And it was where he set the intention. And he said that the meaning of the word temenos was that it was a sacred space, a magic circle where special rules apply and magical events are free to occur, something like this, an unlimited space. And I thought, I like that. So it was for him, it was setting an intention of there’s no rules, there’s unlimited possibilities. stuff’s free to occur. And I thought, what better name for the property I bought? So I named my place Temenos Fields.

[SPEAKER 2]Great. In the course we have with you, we also talk about the Happy Athlete Training Scale. What is the Happy Athlete Training Scale, Karen?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, that is a training scale that I came up with to help show the prioritization. according to me. So we have the, you know, the dressage training scale that many people know, but I thought that’s just one piece. We have to step out and get the bigger picture. So at the, the base of my training scale is happiness. And that goes for the horse and the human. So it’s, it’s about ourselves showing up, doing what we need to do to show up to our horses as a happy individual and that our horse when he’s out in the field away from us has a happy existence, a happy life. So the welfare of the horse. And oh, and there’s a cool definition of happiness that, um, I think really is worth stating here because Gandhi said that happiness is when what you think, what you say and what you do are in harmony. And, how important is that to horses, right? That we are making sense that we, so that’s my, it’s not just like happy, you know, dancing through the field of daisies. It’s like, it’s a real inner coherence. And when we, when, what we think, what we say and what we do are in harmony, we’re happy. So that’s the kind of happiness I mean. And when the horse is a happy individual and I’m a happy person, then I have much more chance of being in harmony with my horse. I like seeing him. He likes seeing me. We’re okay together.

[SPEAKER 2]It’s also this personal relationship, me and my horse, right?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah. We become one plus one. One, you know, we become something together. Yeah. Yeah. It’s that relationship. I think that’s the harmony part is really about the relationship. And and then if we’re in a harmonious relationship, then the next priority and is communication and communication is much easier if we’re starting out from a place of harmony. And so at that stage, we’re thinking about the quality of the communication And I contrast that with techniques for control. So we want to prioritize communication. We want to be able to control our horse because there’s moments that we need to be able to do that to keep everybody safe. But that’s not the goal. The goal is to have a communication, which is a dialogue, which involves listening as much as it does about directing. And once we’re able to communicate, then We can say, all right, well, what do we want to communicate about? And then we can get into techniques. And I believe that some of the first techniques that are important, especially as you’re going on to sport, is to achieve healthy movement. If we’re going to be riding our horse or doing something with the horse, we owe it to them to make sure that we can sit on them and have them deal with our weight in a healthy way. And there’s specific techniques in dressage naturally that really bridge using communication rather than just control in order to kind of play an experiment with the horse to achieve this place that we can both agree on. Because I have this crazy idea that things like balance and freedom of movement will feel good to the horse also. So that’s where we’re able to listen to the horse. So my techniques for healthy movement sound sound and look a lot like, Hey, try your shoulder here. How’s that feel? How about if I sit like this, how does that feel? And I’m asking my horse and I’m listening to my horse and I’m adapting until we get to a place that I call the sweet spot, which is where the horse and I both go, Ooh, this feels good. And this is easy. So those are the techniques. And then once you can do that, And that’s the part that I can really empower people to access. That’s sort of my signature concepts. Now, let’s do dressage, which to me is the gymnastic development of the horse. So when I kind of talk relating it back to something we talked about earlier, when there’s problems or when I see students having troubles with their dressage, a lot of times their dressage problems are not dressage problems. They’re not gymnastic development problems. They’re actually, they’re not in the sweet spot of healthy biomechanics or there’s a lack in the communication or there’s a lack in the harmony or there’s lack of happiness. So when I watch a horse and rider, I trace it all the way back. And I like, if we can see a problem down at the base, we need to go back there and then build it back up again.

[SPEAKER 2]Many of our listeners of course know the classical dressage, training scale, rhythm, relaxation, connection, impulsion, straightness and collection, which is always also in my understanding, always very technical, you know? And where do you see the bridge from your four cornerstones to those aspects and six elements, which are more like a pyramid, to the dressage training scale?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, I mean, they come, I think, dressage naturally they fall within dressage naturally. So I was going to say dressage naturally comes before, but it actually doesn’t come before because it never ends. Dressage naturally engulfs the dressage training too, because we can’t just finish the, um, you know, getting in this beautiful sweet spot of healthy biomechanics, then throw that out the window and start doing dressage, you know? Um, but it’s, it’s sort of the context that the dressage training scale sits in. Um, but I think, well, here’s an example, like does straightness or contact of your horse matter if you’re wrestling with them, because he keeps trying to like push out towards the gate when every time you go around that side of the arena, you know, so I have a prioritization. It’s like, who cares about the posture? Who cares about the straightness or the bend? If your horse is running away with you. Or if you took three people to hold them while you got on the saddle, you know? Yeah, so I always look at this priority. So when I meet a student, if I were to boil it down to three chunks, I see someone for his first time, I think, how’s the foundation horsemanship? How’s the happiness, harmony, basic communication? And if that looks good, then I think, okay, we can think about biomechanics, way of going, posture. And if that also looks good, now we can think about movements and patterns and gymnastics and collection and things like that. So those are, I take all of the training scales, mine and the dressage one. And when I first see someone, I look through those three filters. I go, are they basically happy with each other and communicating? OK, great. Now we have enough of that to now think about their way of moving. And if their way of moving looks pretty nice, then we can think about exercises for gymnastics. Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER 2]Totally. And I think the dressage training scale itself, back in the days when it has been developed and you have been talking about xenophones, for instance, they are like the foundation of those principles. They are very, very old. And I think especially communication, has never been really looked at in the relationship between human and horse. And now as we develop also, as in the equestrian world, I think it’s becoming more and more important, both if you are just a recreational rider or if you are someone with higher goals, that being on the same side with your horse makes a difference, regardless of if you just want to go out for trail riding, or if you want to achieve an Olympic medal.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, even looking at the dressage training scale, if you think rhythm, you know, relaxation, okay, great.

[SPEAKER 2]How? What does this actually mean?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, right. How are we going to do that? And, and even straightness, like, in the course that I have in WeHorse, there’s an exercise that I do about communication for following the rail or for being on a circle with like virtually no aids, like no reins and neutral legs and your horse follows the line of travel. So I like to think about getting the mind and the feet on the line of travel. And I’ve seen so many people wrestling, trying to like get the right bend or hold their horse straight. Because if they take their AIDS off, the horse is all over the place. So I go, no, let’s take the AIDS off. There shouldn’t need to be a lot of AIDS. Let’s get the horse knowing where he needs to go and committing to it. And we shouldn’t need AIDS for that. And so you can solve a lot of straightness issues, which is pretty high up on that dressage training scale, but you can solve that in a foundational way by just being able to communicate to your horse, go where I’m looking and train them that. So for me, straightness on one level is very basic because I want the mind and the feet. Now, the mind and the feet are on the line of travel and they happen to be a little bit crooked while they’re on that straight line of travel. That’s the role of dressage. Let’s let’s get rid of the asymmetries in their movement because we’re all crooked somewhere. But straightness shouldn’t be my horses trying to leave and I have to hold them to keep them from leaving. Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER 2]Yeah, and I think to a certain extent this also decodes a little the training scale. When I was a young writer, everyone was preaching the training scale and this is the foundation for everything. But it’s sometimes hard, especially for beginners and intermediates, hard to really understand what does this actually mean now? Like how can I translate this in my daily training or in the way I interact with my horse? or the way I am training for a certain goal. And I think adding new aspects around that and creating something new makes complete sense, especially with all the knowledge we have from the horsemanship world these days now.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, yeah. And it was it was doing the horsemanship exercises such as introducing the liberty and bridalist riding that really opened my eyes. So my horse, Monty, who is a little lip is on that I was given because he was crazy. And I thought, oh, here’s a horse to experiment with this natural horsemanship stuff with because he’s already messed up. So, you know. Only way is up, but he was amazing. And I, I remember, you know, just thinking about communication at Liberty and having him circle around me at Liberty. And, you know, in, in trying to develop that at first, he doesn’t, and he escapes a little here and there and doesn’t quite make the circle. But then when he, when his mind committed and he’s like, I got it, I am committed to the circle. He would go into this beautiful stretch and bend. And I’m like, huh, I don’t have any aids on him. And he just improved his posture simply because he decided to do it. He said, I’m going to hook on that circle. And then later doing it at the canter and bringing the circle in smaller and watching him collect himself in a round and arches neck. And he’s looking, I’m like, his posture is like perfect for collection and I’m not touching him. So why, when I’m riding him, Should I need so many aids? So that was another thing that made me really think about how I was doing things. And every time now, if I’m using a lot of aids for something, I go, wait, something’s missing because my horse can do it at Liberty. Can do a shoulder in on a circle at Liberty and he’ll bend himself and carry himself if he knows what the job is and I give him the opportunity to offer it. So now not all horses You know, Monty was a Lipizzani and very natural tendencies to a collection. Some horses need a little more help. They need dressage training. But but to see what was how much would change and how much the posture would improve through mental commitment to it was eye opening. It really made me question. Exactly what my aides were doing and how many aides I don’t need. if I really have the horse’s trust and connection and understanding.

[SPEAKER 2]And for all of our listeners that don’t know a Lippizan horse, the Lippizan is from Austria and it is a breed that is actually closely associated with the Spanish riding school in Vienna and actually has been bred by the by the kings and queens, or actually I think it’s even the emperor of Austria back in the days, Austria-Hungary, and they bred especially the Lippizant, especially for those high dressage, classical dressage movements in the Spanish writing school of Vienna, which is still on till today. We actually have courses with one of the masters from the Spanish writing school on Wehorse, and it’s a breed that naturally offers collection, for instance.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, very cool.

[SPEAKER 2]Karen, Liberty Work, is that still something you enjoy till today?

[SPEAKER 1]Yes, I do. It’s it’s sort of my checkpoint. I can’t say, you know, there’s some amazing Liberty people like the pinyons. And, you know, I am not that. But I I do it as a very humbling experience for myself, because it’s really where you get a lot of the truth about how your horse feels about you, because they have they have so much opportunity to leave. And it really tests communication. because it’s really about educating the horse to what you want them to do and about pressure, tension and pressure, especially within myself. And I’ve got some really sensitive horses. I have a little national show horse, a little Spitfire named Atomic, and he’s amazing at Liberty or he just runs away from me and it’s all up to me. So I like to do some Liberty work as I think, I feel like it’s a really nice contrast to the intensity of dressage and the closeness and, you know, particularness of dressage training. So I love to do liberty where my horses get to be free. And then my game is what do I need to do to get them to come and interact with me and hook on to me? And then, you know, how much can I ask them to do? And they still want to be with me. So it’s I love giving them the opportunity to leave if they want to. I think it’s very empowering for the horse. And then the game is it’s all up to me. to somehow cause them to want to be with me. So it’s a super fun exercise and can be very humbling. It can be magical and humbling, depending.

[SPEAKER 2]That is true. Both ways.

[SPEAKER 1]I think it’s a really good practice for dressage people to let go of control. It’s not easy to let go of control. And when we know all the fancy techniques for control, even while writing, but in letting go and taking AIDS off, you either, you know, you get the truth. So it’s, you find out what’s not working, but you also get the opportunity to experience the most amazing moments. So, yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]When you came up with your own method and also, as you just said, liberty work, this is not particularly common in the dressage world, to be frank. Did you get any backlash? How was the reception actually in the dressage world where you said, hey, let’s try the little horsemanship now?

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, it was interesting. The people back at the facility I left I was told that the talk around there was like, oh yeah, she doesn’t do real dressage anymore. She ran off and joined the circus. Like, how can I not be doing real dressage anymore? Anyway, and I’ve had, I’ve had, I remember riding around in a, in the place in Florida and I’m riding around bridalists and this one trainer came over and he was, He like was all impassioned and he started drawing pictures of horses’ posture in the sand. He’s like, no, they must, it must be like this and you can’t let them go like this. And he was drawing pictures of collection and engagement. I go, yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. And I’m like, thanks, you know, and I went off riding bridalists. But then the next day I came back and I did dressage with the same horse. And he’s like, oh yes, yes, yes, what’d you do there? That’s really dressage. So, and then actually that one guy, um, later he he’s kind of come full circle and, um, comes and teaches me, um, regularly. And it’s like, at first it was sort of shocking to him. He just saw a horse without a bridle. And so he wasn’t on the bit. And so, ah, you know, dressage riders have trouble seeing horses, not on a bit. Uh, so it was shocking at first, but then as he saw what I was doing, He actually loved coming and teaching me and he would teach me as I rode with a bitless bridle. And then I put a bit on and there was times he’d say, no, no, they go better in the bitless, put the bitless back on. And he really started to understand what I was doing. And it was just wonderful because he, you know, he would let me, he could see the relationship with the horse. He had a sense of humor when I was having a lesson and my other horses who were turned loose would gallop through the arena. And I just thought that was funny. And so did he. And he just kept saying, this is how horses are supposed to live. This is how it’s supposed to be. And, you know, in the middle of a session, if I said, you know, hang on, you know, can I give my horse a break? Or I, you know, I knew my horse did something extra special and I’d stop and he he’d be like, oh, no, no, you’re right.

[SPEAKER 2]You’re right.

[SPEAKER 1]You know, so he really got past that initial shock of seeing a horse not in a perfect frame with a bit to make the contact. And and the more he looked, the more he actually said, you know, what you’re doing is really what dressage is supposed to be about. So that to me was like the best comment in the world. And, you know, it’s important. It’s nice to hear. But at the end of the day, it’s really I think we all You know, it’s we all have the right to create our own dream with our horse. And I think if we’re prioritizing things like happiness and harmony and communication, whatever you do can’t be going that wrong. You know, it’s the magic moments between you and your horse that really count. And in teaching like this, I’ve met some really cool students who do some really cool stuff with their horses and even using aids that I go, wait, that That’s not the right aid. But then I watch and I go, her horse totally understands what she’s saying. So, you know, it’s kind of a step back and to get out of my own ego and say what what’s what I like to do with students is help them connect with their horses and help them understand each other and be in harmony and have a healthy balance with ease. And that’s really my specialty. and to empower students to do that. And from there you can do anything. So like you said, I’ve taught people who just trail ride. I taught people who do endurance and have gotten better endurance results because their horse is freer in their movement. I’ve taught people who do cutting and reining and gated and things that I know nothing about, but it improves everything because it’s the beginning of everything.

[SPEAKER 2]Eventually, it boils down to one foundation, regardless if you’re an endurance rider, dressage Grand Prix or just a trail rider. It’s the same foundational basis you need to have.

[SPEAKER 1]Exactly. I remember I did a clinic at a dressage trainer’s facility and she asked to take a lesson. at the end of the day. And she had a Grand Prix horse and she said she had trouble with, he was really heavy in the canter pirouettes. He was a huge horse. And I had, you know, kind of traced the problem all, as I do, all the way back. And when I was talking to her, I realized that, you know, she was holding on to him and he kept kind of creeping forward as I was talking and I kept creeping back and I went with him. you know, have him stand, drop the reins, and then he’d walk off. And I, no, no, no. Go back there, drop the reins, and he’d walk off. And she was getting really frustrated because she wanted to talk about canter pirouettes and connection and lightness and engagement. And I was making her work on standing there with no reins. But and then I gave her an exercise of, you know, ride around and then halt and drop the reins and have them stand there. And she had a really hard time doing that. And she was getting mad. And she kind of was telling me how this was dumb. So I kind of just let her work on it for a little bit. And then she started to make some progress and she came over and she was asking more questions. And I, and I related it to, you know, she had these two big mastiffs and I said, when you teach your dog to sit, right. Cause you want your horse to sit in a pirouette. Like when you teach your dogs to sit, how do you do it? And she’s like, tell them, sit. And then I said, do they sit? It’s like, no, because they don’t know how to. It’s like, okay, then what do you do? And she says, well, I lift up on the collar and I push the butt down until they sit. And I go, and then what do you do? And then she says, then I let go. And then the quarter dropped in. And I said, you’re not doing that with your horse. You’re holding him. It says you standing here talking to me, holding your horse to keep him from moving off is the same as you sitting there with your hand on your dog’s collar and your dog’s rear end the whole time. I think it’s ridiculous. And then she got it. And so then she started playing. And, you know, she was practicing cantering and then stopping and dropping the reins and seeing if he would move. And if he moved, she cracked him in the drop the reins again. And I said, OK, now do a canter pirouette. Night and day. So that’s what I mean by dressage problems are not always dressage problems. So I just traced it back and I said, not being able to stand still on a long rein is a really basic foundational issue that’s totally connected to canter pirouettes. If you have to hold on to your horse’s face at halt, that’s really physically easy circumstance. Under a physically demanding circumstance, of course your horse is going to want to be on your hands even more. So that’s the kind of, that’s an example of taking a high level challenge and seeing the very very basic foundational communication related piece that’s missing and if we got the communication about hey when my seat’s staying here you stay here and I shouldn’t need reins for that get that communication excellent now we have that piece to add in during the canter pirouette.

[SPEAKER 2]We have four signature questions. Uh-oh. And they are now waiting for you. Oh boy. And question number one is, do you have a motto?

[SPEAKER 1]Oh, I do. I have an answer for that question, which is never underestimate the possibility for things to improve in ways you cannot yet imagine.

[SPEAKER 2]Brilliant. Next question. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian life?

[SPEAKER 1]I’d have to say Anne Gribbins. Absolutely.

[SPEAKER 2]We talked about her earlier.

[SPEAKER 1]Yeah, because she had me in my formative years, you know, from 15 to, you know, on my 30s, I was there with her. I think definitely most influential. I would not have been, yeah, I would have been in the university doing scientific illustration or something like that.

[SPEAKER 2]If you could give horse lovers or riders one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]Oh, just one. I just love your horse. Like you’re a little kid. Don’t forget why you got into horses in the first place. Love your horse. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]Number four, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are dot, dot, dot.

[SPEAKER 1]For me, horses are what make me my best version of myself.

[SPEAKER 2]Great. Thanks so much, Karen. It has been a pleasure having you on the podcast. Also, for all our listeners, you can see Karen at the WeHorse Online Festival, 12th of September, 10 a.m. Eastern, alongside Olympian, gold medalist and world champion Ingrid Klimke, equine massage therapist Jim Masterson, classical dressage expert Anya Beran, and you. We are super excited to have you and free tickets for everyone wehorse.com slash festival dash us.

[SPEAKER 1]Thank you so much for Christian. It’s been really fun speaking with you and I’m so glad you thought of me for this podcast.

[SPEAKER 2]Yeah, great. Thank you, Karen. Thanks for listening to the Equestrian Experience podcast. For more information, follow us on Instagram or visit wehorse.com. Make sure you subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts. If you’re an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend us to a friend. Thanks for listening from wehorse, the online riding academy, and tune in next time for the Equestrian Experience.