#73 Tuning Inwards with Mustang Maddy

[SPEAKER 2]
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In this episode, we're talking with Madison Shambaugh, also known as Mustang Maddie, the founder of the Horse Human Connection Academy.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So the no for me is just the beginning of the conversation. And if I just skip over it, oftentimes that no is going to come up in other shadowy ways later on down the road.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection Podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell, and I'm your host. Madison Shambaugh, also known as Mustang Maddie from her work with wild horses, is a horse trainer and the founder of the Horse Human Connection Academy, a program that teaches her signature methodology, which has allowed her to train and connect with any horse using methods that honor the horse in the process. In this episode, we'll be talking about her journey with horses and horsemanship, rehabilitating untrainable horses, clicker training, where she's going from here, and so much more. So let's get started. Maddie, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm super excited to talk with you, and I have a feeling that our audience will be really excited to tune in. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Thank you, Danielle. Thanks for having me.

[SPEAKER 2]
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We're going to go back to the beginning. How did you get started with horses, and what were your first few years like as a horsewoman?

[SPEAKER 1]
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So I was always drawn to horses and animals in general from a really young age, and I I feel like the fire was lit with horses. Specifically, during time spent with my dad and my sister, we would ride horses in Colorado, like through the mountains and going on some like overnight backcountry trips. And just being out on the land with horses, I feel like was the like big... big draw for me. I reflected on that recently and kind of it's been a full circle, like revisiting that way of being with horses lately. So that was my very first draw. I got a horse of my own when I was 10 and I My dad had had horses growing up, but it was just kind of like hop on and bear back and like run through the fields kind of thing. And so it was definitely challenging. I did not come from like a family of like trainers or anything like that. And yeah, you know, there's just this conflict from a young age of like, I really want to be with these animals. And I'm like a very sensitive child, but I'm also like being thrown into this ideology of like, you know, you got to show them who's boss and you get bucked off, just got to get right back on them kind of thing. And so, yeah, it was really challenging in the beginning. I mean, I got bucked off, bolted with, you know, kicked, charged, all kinds of things. Um, and yeah, it just started out very different from like the image or like the, um, desire, you know, that I had. And so, um, I don't know some piece, like some, something inside of me though, I don't think ever fully lost the thread. I would kind of get off track a little bit, but then like reorient, you know, and just, yeah, if anything, it just kept lighting the fire of me to look deeper for answers. Um, so yeah, I could go into any parts of that deeper, but that's kind of like an overlay of my very beginnings with horses. Um, and then I got into barrel racing, um, And I, barrel racing was primarily what I did actually growing up. I was, like, on the high school rodeo team and just would go to a lot of, like, local barrel races and started training my own barrel horses. And that was interesting, too, because there's obviously, you know, just like in any discipline, there's some... Yeah, I guess more forceful ways of doing things present and some really hot horses, you know. And so my whole goal with barrel racing that kind of emerged over time was like, how do I how do I train these horses to be like relaxed? but also competitive. And so that was kind of my exploration during those years, which gave me really a, you know, a really good start, I think, in a lot of ways. And right away, I'm kind of playing with this edge of like, okay, what's possible kind of thing. And And then began starting my own colts and just like kept going backwards through the process. Right. Like in the beginning, it was like, OK, well, I was starting with green horses and then barrel horses. And then it was like, OK, well, now I want to start my own horses on the pattern. And now I want to start my own colts and started training colts for other people and started doing that when I was 15 or 16, I think. um yeah and then um I got into mustangs in 20 I think I got my first mustang in 2013 um and so anything to do with like yeah starting a horse under saddle for the first time or like first touches for me that um Those were, like, the really big interests and focal points of what I was doing. It felt like, I don't know, the crossing of some, like, threshold, you know, when a horse allows you to get on their back for the first time or a wild horse reaches out to touch you or allows you to touch them for the first time. And... So that was a core focus and interest of mine. And it's also interesting because I think some of the most trauma with horses happens during those processes. So to this day, that's been a huge focus of my work.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I want to go back to when you had said. barrel racing, but like with a sense of relaxation as well, like the horses are relaxed and still competitive. And I, and I feel like there's a bit of a misconception within the industry or a belief within the industry that, um, sport horses have to be hot. So we look at, for example, like you said, like the barrel racers or, um, show jumpers or dressage horses, like they need to have like a, you know, a sense of heat or, um, like an up energy in their body in order to perform like the big movements or the high jumps or, you know, anything like that, have the speed. When you were introducing this idea that you can have a competitive horse and a relaxed horse, were you confronted with any like negative feedback from other people? Like what was that whole process like? Cause I find that really interesting.

[SPEAKER 1]
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yeah, people thought I was crazy. Yeah. Or like, um, that it was taking too long or it wasn't going to work or, you know, whatever. Um, and I really didn't know if it was going to work either. I just knew that this is the way I had to do it for it to feel like right to me and okay with me and the way that I, yeah, wanted to do it from like, yeah, this relational way of approaching it. And yeah, it, so I guess, yeah, it just came down to like what felt right for me and my horse and just following that even, even amongst like the doubts of other, other people and, You know, I, back when I was really in it, I knew more of the like science and stuff, but I know that there's, I know I've heard of research somewhere of like, you know, a horse's stride being longer when they're more relaxed, you know? And of course, like when you go to ask them to run, they're going to have like kind of that fire come out, but it's like, for me, it's like that energy comes from a place of relaxation and then it returns to a place of relaxation. Um, and so that to me is the like core differentiator. Um, and I mean, it's easier to make, um, to ask the horse to make little changes, you know, if I'm coming into that first barrel and they're going to drop their shoulder a little bit, you know, and I asked them to lift if their whole body isn't super tense, they're going to more, they're going to be more able to, um, perform that little movement I'm asking them to do, you know, if they're more relaxed. So yeah, it's been a while since I've been in that world or the competitive world in general. Um, cause I went from barrel horses and to then the extreme Mustang makeovers. Um, and yeah, so Yeah, it's interesting.

[SPEAKER 2]
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The Extreme Lessing Makeover, can you tell us a little bit about your journey with that? Like, that's so cool. It's such a neat thing to experience. And I'm sure for a lot of people to have been able to witness as well. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. I mean, I, let's see my man, I got my first Mustang in 2013 and my goal was to, this was my first Mustang ever gentled. Pretty sure. Yeah. 2013. And my goal was like to see how fast I could do it, to see if I like had what it took to do the extreme Mustang makeover, you know, and that Mustang just completely and totally humbled me. Um, I, yeah, I think I got on him like day three and he bucked me off like two times because, of course, you know, I'm getting back on. And so then it just like. yeah really um taught me you know when it comes to well you could arguably say everything but especially relationships that slow is fast and fast is slow right and um so i slowed way down and just took my time with that mustang and then was able to apply all the things that he taught me to actually um doing it with a makeover horse And my first makeover horse was a few years later. He ended up having some sort of like neurological issue. He would like stumble and like fall down to his knees while I was riding him. It was really odd and took him to a bunch of different vets and things and just couldn't figure it out. So he didn't end up working out for the makeover. But he was really quite easy to start, especially compared to the first Mustang that I worked with, Tarii. who I still have. And so I dropped out of the makeover and then applied again. And it was a really difficult time for me. It was like my application got approved. But I think I was like, no, no, I was recovering from a broken leg the first time I did it. And then this next time that I did it, my grandpa passed away and just a really hard time. There's just all these things that kept, you with the makeovers. And, but this, this next time that I tried it, I got Turk, who's a Mustang that I still have. And that was the first makeover that I competed in. It was the Virginia, a Virginia Extreme Mustang makeover. And yeah, I mean, that experience was life changing for me. I he, Turk was an extremely sensitive horse and it was just like a process of learning to work with his sensitivity and all the lessons that he had for me in that. Um, I did a lot of bridalist work with him. I went much deeper into the bridalist riding work and, um, ended up doing, um, a bridalist freestyle with him at the makeover. And that, um, Video ended up going viral as well as getting a really amazing response just in person. And that is really when my career with horses just kind of like catapulted and just like took off. And Stacey Westfall, who had been a really big influence on me at the time, shared my video and. And so it got put out to all of her her audience. And that was just like kind of the moment of like the before versus the after. Like my life was totally changed by that and through that and and that makeover. So then I went on to compete in the Louisiana Mustang makeover with my Mustang Dakota. I did another bridalist freestyle with him. Um, and then I ended up doing Mustang magic in 2017 with, um, my mayor Amira, who I also still have, you're probably recognizing a pattern here. And yeah, that experience, I mean, there's so many details to all these experiences. I'm just giving a really big overview. Um, but basically up until this point I had been, except for my very first Mustang, I had been Um, when I go to pick up a Mustang from the BLM holding, I would have them put a halter on the horse in the chutes, which is fairly common. That way, you know, you're sending them through the chutes, they put a halter on them, then they push them into the trailer. And then when you get home, you let them go into the round pen and they already have a halter on, usually dragging a lead rope. Well, I had like forgotten my halter that day with Amira when I went to pick her up. And, um, that's really what started it all because as I was playing with the process of, of doing it with no physical connection from the beginning, I was like, this is really cool. And we had started building like this communication system with each other, um, And I just wanted to keep going with it. And then I was like, oh, it'd be really cool to see what if she would like actually allow me on her back for the first time without having ever altered her. and like done everything at Liberty. And so that was the very first time I started a horse under saddle at Liberty. Well, in the beginning, no saddle either. It was just totally bareback and bridalist start over the course of a week. And yeah, that was another huge changing or turning point in my career and my work with horses. And And then ended up competing with her at Mustang Magic, which is kind of like the finals of the Extreme Mustang Makeover. So it's like invitation only event and ended up winning that with Amira, which was really exciting and exciting. Yeah, those were those were the main makeovers that I did. I did like a tip challenge. Was it two summers ago with a burrow? I've really been wanting to spend more time with burrows. So I did that with my burrow biscuit. And yeah, they've yeah, they've they've definitely played a large part in shaping my work with horses and just being able to meet new people and reach more people through my work. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Very cool. Can you tell us a little bit about it and correct me if I'm wrong, but you started off more so with like a natural horsemanship pressure and release type training and then transition to where you are now. Can you kind of walk us through how you, you know, made the decision to transition? Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. I'm like chuckling because it's just been such a journey. I feel like my, my, work with horses is just ever evolving. Um, and that's kind of how I like move through the world as well. I don't know that it's always necessarily by choice, but just like, you know, this constant like shedding of skins and, um, you know, like these really kind of intense, like death rebirth type journeys, um, And so my horsemanship definitely, I think, reflects that. And so I think the first big shift was when I was. I mean, just. going even from barrel race like a focus on barrel horses to focus on mustangs like that was a big shift in my work right and then really fully diving into like natural horsemanship and things like that with the mustangs um yeah which i'm using the term natural horsemanship because that's the term a lot of people will find familiar but that's like just basically working with trying to refine pressure and release um as a way of being with horses and training horses um And so in I think it was 2018 was really the big shift for me to where then I shed, you know, this identity I had with pressure and release and natural horsemanship and went fully into positive reinforcement and clicker training. And I would say and I'll kind of then I'll back up and go more into detail into that. But I would say that my work has now done another big shift over the past few years to where I'm at now, where it's like I'm feel like I'm just kind of going into this realm beyond even like behaviorism and approaching from this lens of behaviorism and like the learning quadrant and And that kind of way of seeing things. The closest way that I can kind of describe where I'm at now is seeing horsemanship and the ways we connect with horses as animals. like an ecosystem. I think of like a tree basically. And I think of the roots that are underground that influence our, the connections we have with horses, those roots being connection to self connection to land and place. And, um, more than human kin, our relationship to community, to family, to friends, how we relate to one another, our connection to culture and power structure, and then our connection to horse as well. But it's all part of this tree, right? It's just like the underground roots that we might not always see at first glance because like, oh, I just want to go out and ride my horse on the trail or, you know, whatever, do whatever it is. But these things to me are are always feeding and influencing the relationship we have with our horses. And so, um, yeah, there's more, I could go down that rabbit hole, but just like as a framework of how I'm like looking at approaching horses these days, you know, and that's, that's been a huge shift too, but going back to, um, the moment that I was shifting from pressure and release into clicker training, um, That transition for me was I had reached the limits of pressure and release. I felt like I was working with a bottle fed zebra who was extremely aggressive. And I was working with a like 15 year old Mustang that was used in like a dude ranch like scenario, um, like trail, like public giving the public trail rides and had like this super chronic bolting issue, um, like with a really large reinforcement history and a lot of trauma. And these two cases, I just felt like I was reaching, um, like the limits, like in the, like the toolbox I had. And, um, I also felt like pressure and release at that point, like the amount of pressure I found myself having to use in those cases, I just didn't feel comfortable with. I didn't find it enjoyable. I didn't find it resonant for me. So that's when I started playing with clicker training. And in the beginning I was, I was kind of just like using food rewards on top of the knowledge I already had through pressure and release type training and And, um, so that was, yeah, there was a lot of limitations with that too, because like, I wasn't fully learning the language of positive reinforcement to me, like, and I say these terms loosely, but just to kind of help us make sense and differentiate between like positive reinforcement, okay, food rewards, negative reinforcement, like pressure and release. Um, uh they're two different languages I think that there's overlap but they are absolutely two different languages they have things that are unique to them um and so it wasn't until yeah later into 2018 I fully dove into trying to learn the language in full um I went to like a um It was like a marine mammal rehabilitation slash educational center to like take a course basically that had a very deep dive into clicker training. And we learned with dolphins, sea lions, and also birds and other animals that were at the sanctuary. And so that just like totally opened my eyes. I was so excited to go home and try all of these things out with the horses and And I was working with a Mustang at the time who came to me with a lot of trauma. Mystic, who I ended up doing kind of a YouTube series with online. I think that that was around the time I was integrating everything I had learned. And it was the perfect opportunity because she somehow worked her way out of the round pen. I think she like rubbed a panel open or something and was just like in this huge field in the corner of the property that I was at. And so I was like, again, kind of similar to what I did with Amira. I'm like, OK, well, this wasn't planned, but I'm going to go with this. Like, maybe there's something here. Like, I wonder how much we can do together at Liberty out in this huge field only using clicker training. And so, yeah, for better or worse, I feel like I tend to go like really deep down rabbit holes and like fully immersed, like go 400 percent into something. Right. And so I kind of did that again with Mystic and learned so much with her. And yeah. Yeah. And then I took my clicker training into gentling. I used to run retreats. They're called running wild retreats where we would match women up with a wild horse and they would gentle them with me over the course of about 10 days. And so I did that with about six Mustang mares in 2019, and we gentled them completely with clicker training, except for a few outliers, which I can go into in more detail if we want to. But yeah, I was fully in it. I trained my retired racehorse project off the track thoroughbred fin, doing a positive reinforcement restart, and that process was really cool. So, yeah, fully went into it. And then, yeah, kind of as of more like the past few years, my work has evolved again. But that's a little bit of it.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Can you tell us a little bit about what it was about those other horses that the positive reinforcement didn't work for them?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. And it's it's not that I don't know that it wasn't working, but it did get to the point where. the timeline that I had, which was pretty generous. Still, it just wasn't, it maybe wasn't ideal. I think, I think what I found hard about it was when they would get triggered, I didn't have any tools to help them come back down from that trigger. I just and I saw them getting stuck like their nervous system would just get stuck in the state of arousal. If you think of trauma specifically, which I think that's what set these two horses apart was trauma because I couldn't like they didn't seem to be able to regulate their nervous system. And even regulate, I don't know about that word. It feels like we're then trying to like really control the nervous system, but they just would get stuck in this heightened state. So anyway, if you think of trauma, it's like, you know, a roller coaster, like what goes up must come down. And these horses are like stuck at the top of the roller coaster. Right. And I'm just standing there like, OK, well, there's nothing I can do. Sometimes they would stay in this triggered, heightened state for like the rest of the day. And maybe, you know, it wasn't until the next day where I could even do a training session with them again. So the only tool that I really had was to just step away, you know, let them kind of work it out on their own, see if they could, you know, and they would, you know, come back down eventually to some degree. And then just like, I mean, we're talking micro shaping, like the smallest little baby steps possible. And also like the concept of clean loops, which Alexandra Kurland, I first learned from her. So basically, like you want to try to get three clean loops of a behavior before like advancing it at all to the next approximation of that behavior, like making it at all more difficult for the horse. So the clean loop is like no unwanted behavior comes up. You know, they're not spooking. They're not flinching. There's no latency at all. And I'm offering the behavior. You're basically trying to get three clean loops of like no tension being present in this case for the horse when I'm asking them to do something, which could have been picking up their feet or haltering or whatever. And so, yeah. Yeah, I would do like five clean loops in a row. And then like if I moved my criteria up a little bit, I would only do like one harder rep of the year. And then I would go back and do another five clean loops at the approximation below it. Like. So I'm kind of zooming. I hope people aren't too lost with this, but because I'm getting into the nitty gritties of shaping behaviors, but basically just breaking it down into incredibly small bits and really building up reinforcement history before making the behavior more challenging at all. That's really the only thing I could really do is. for them. So anyway, I just, again, you know, I'm feeling just like I'm kind of coming up to my limits. Um, and also like, yeah, they do need to get their feet done, right? Like they're, they're needing some care and stuff. And so, um, let's see. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there's anything else I want to add on that. There's, there's, again, it's just, there's so much I could say on all of this. Um, but yeah, It basically got to the point where... Oh, sorry. Okay. The other thing that I really noticed, too, is just, like, this lack of being able to generalize. That is also, you know, we see in horses with trauma. So, like, if you... touch them with your hand palm face towards them but then you go to touch them with your hand um palm facing away like your knuckles approaching them like that's a whole different thing they're not going to just generalize oh well the palm touch was okay so now the knuckle touch is going to be okay like it's a whole new thing and so just this lack of generalization that was another hang up I had with it as well um And so, yeah, what I did then was I was like, you know what? Like, this is just I got to get them trained. Like, I got to get them trained. Their adopters are being extremely patient with me. And so I went into the round pen with them and I was like, I'm just going to do like how I would normally like how I used to do it, you know. And I did not like that process at all. It just felt like kind of out of alignment with where I was now. But with that first Mustang Luala, I started noticing that if I would time my moment of release, like in this case, just turning and walking away from her, like approach and retreat type work. If I timed it. When she would blink, I would start to get these huge like licking and chewing and yawning and her nervous system like starting to come back down and not staying stuck. Right. And then I started noticing that she would go into these like really sleepy states, which to me, I was like, oh, well, that seems to me like it's her parasympathetic nervous system like kicking in, like the rest and digest state. And so I started just like noticing some really cool things happening with her. I feel like she was like the main horse that helped me like co-create this this approach that I've been playing with over the past few years, working with horses with trauma and have since built a lot more nuance into it and things like that. But that's basically the approach I took until I got to the point where she was like comfortable around me and I felt like could regulate her nervous system and not get stuck. And then I could add the clicker training back in. But it seemed just way more effective. She was way more grounded after that. And I had way more success with it. Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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When you look back on, you know, and obviously I know that you're still working with horses in a different capacity, but when you look back on a lot of the training that you've done over the years and also the working with the humans, you know, the other horse people as well, where do you think that some people are...

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:46-00:31:34]
like I don't want to say going wrong with their training because at the end of the day like it's it's always a learning experience but where do you think that people are maybe going in in a different direction than they intend um with their training with the horses in general not just necessarily with positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement but just in general yeah I feel like And I hesitate to say this because I feel like it's almost been overstated and it might come across like super simple, but it's not to me anyway, which is listening to our horses. Again, I feel like that's said so much and it's almost like watered down at this point.

[SPEAKER 2]
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The thing, though, too, for me is it's like, but it's being said so much for a reason.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. There's so much there. whatever methodology that you're using, whether you're using pressure and release or clicker training, if we're not listening to our horses, it's just at the end of the day, I don't think it's going to be effective. It might get short-term results, right? But like, as far as like long-term results, I just, I see that missing. And so when I even say listening to our horses, like, what does that mean? Because I, And again, there's so many different layers to it. But like, OK, the most obvious one is learning to read stress signals. Right. I mean, that learning to recognize stress is. Before it's going into fight, flight or freeze. So before it's going into a bolt, before it's going into a freeze, before it's going into and even learning to recognize freeze state. Right. I mean, I still think as a horse community, we have a lot of work to still do around that. Yeah. But listening to them in that regard. And here's the thing, too. I feel like you can look at, you know, like in in one of the courses I have, it's like we have a talk on stress signals. We have a PDF handout, you know, like kind of like all of the different images of like, OK, this is triangulation of the eye. This is like a tightening of the nostril. Like these are the little things to look for. Right. And so that we can listen to our horses. But there's also blocks to. Actually being able to listen to our horses in the moment, even though we might physically recognize them, the actual act of being able to listen to them, honor them, validate them in a way can be blocked. For example, if we have a lot of conditioning ourselves around not listening to our own bodies, it is incredibly difficult to listen to a horse's body. It can bring up a lot of grief. It can bring and grief in the form of denial, rage, leaky faucet, tears. I'm crying and I haven't cried in years. I don't know why. You know, like it brings up so many deep emotions. Yeah. for us, I think, or, or allowing our horse to say no, you know, it's like, for me, that was not sustainable, if I didn't start realizing how to let myself say no, right? Because it was a really quick road to burnout, because it's like, well, I'm holding all these space for horses, and they get to say no all the time. And like, well, God, they like, I want to say no, you know, and so, yeah, there's so many deep layers. It's like, I think that we, can have the tools in the closet but like the ability to like open the door and actually access those tools um it can be much there's just so many layers to it um And in some cases, I think, yes, and really deep healing that needs to take place before we can actually implement them. And that's why I like going back to the tree framework. It's like these are all the like the underground root systems that maybe we're not always consciously aware of, but like they're they're always there underneath the ground. Right. So, yeah, there's so much to that. listening, listening to our horse, like a deep listening and the acknowledging piece. And I think it's like, it's challenging because there's not a lot of frameworks that I'm seeing of like, okay, well, what do you do when your horse says no? And I think that there's a lot of criticism and pushback because it's like, well, okay, so your horse is going to say no. And you're just like, not going to do anything ever again. Oh my God, that sounds awful. You know, that's not what we're saying. To me, no, is just like the beginning of the conversation. Um, so it's like, okay, my horse just said, no, I hear you. And I'm going to back off with whatever I'm doing. And now I'm going to start asking, what about this horse? Is uncomfortable to you? Does it cause physical pain? You know, obviously we don't always start there. Is it, you know, if we're, you know, we're saddling a horse, you know, and they're saying no to that. It's like, OK, is it the sound of the creaking leather? Is it the way the syrups are touching your belly when I lay the saddle on? Is it specifically seeing an object going over you from your right eye? Um, is it, I mean, it could be so many different little factors, but like based on their answer, then I know where I could better prepare them so that they feel like they can say yes to that. Um, so the no for me is, is just the beginning of the conversation. Um, And if I just skip over it, oftentimes that no is going to come up in other shadowy ways later on down the road. So you might be thinking as you're listening to this, like, oh, but Maddie, that's going to take forever, you know? And I'm like, well, it might take a little longer in the beginning, but then you have a foundation and like, you have a communication system in place too. I mean, I work a lot of like with two way communication with horses and like, it's like once I get that system in place and then combined with the nervous system work and like their ability to like come down, you know, if they do go up that they can come down and they're not stuck in the up, then it's like, everything is like, just is so easy. I mean, it's so much easier, you know?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:37:24-00:37:38]
That leads me beautifully into my next question, which is, can you tell us a little bit about the Horse Human Connection Academy, what it is, what people get from it, as well as the individual mentoring that you offer?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:40-00:42:60]
Yeah. So the Horse Human Connection Academy is created in 2020. And I basically wanted to create a course that would really give people like the foundational knowledge. understandings and practices that could like allow them to go in whatever direction they wanted to go essentially like it's it's very foundational but also really detailed at the same time so I go over what I've called or referred to as the five golden rules that I teach which is you know, a focus on the principles over the method. So like there's millions of methods, but there's a few core principles typically when we're learning something. Right. So it's kind of that same same approach. And like if you're learning to cook, you know, you can like memorize a million recipes or you can learn the ingredients and how they work together to create your own recipes. And so that's what I wanted to empower people with to do with their horses. So it's the five golden rules and then also 10 foundation behaviors central to positive reinforcement and clicker training that not only gives your horses the foundation they need to move on with like different, more advanced behaviors of clicker training, but also the understanding for you. And so that is kind of the format of the course and wanted to make it into something, you know, doable for folks to do. So like 120 days or so. I am in the process of completely changing everything, like giving it a big remodel and just like reimagining how I want to be teaching what I want to be teaching. And yeah, so yeah. We're doing a class right now, and then I'm going to focus on, like, really reimagining how things are going to look moving forward. But I know that I want to kind of leave the rigidity of teaching from, like, the lens of, like, the learning quadrant, for example, and, like, more into using, like, story, for example. Story, teaching through story is, like, a very ancient thing. way and you know a lot of people still teach through story right but it it allows more fluidity it allows for context like specific context that person that horse that landscape um story reveals new layers um like when you're ready for that layer. Otherwise, those are going to probably remain hidden like these seeds, you know, underground until they are ready to take root. So story is really amazing. And I really want to start teaching more through story and like kind of non-traditional ways of teaching that just feel more, yeah, in alignment with where I'm at now. And also in a way that honors not just ways of knowing like in our head, like in our minds, but other ways of knowing, ways of knowing through land, through our bodies, through our hands, you know, and embodiment. in that way um through heart and emotional intelligence like there's so many different ways of knowing and I feel like I as well you know as you know this culture that I've been born into it's like there's this huge focus on the mind and yeah that's important but like we're discounting all these other ways of knowing right so there's a lot of changes I want to make in in the way that I'm teaching and and then of course like kind of updating um And bringing this new iteration of my work into it, which doesn't negate or take away from My past teachings, both with pressure and release and clicker training, it like contains and like goes beyond them like a pond ripple. Right. It's just like these wider and wider circles, I feel like. So, yeah, those are a few of the things I'm looking to do with the school. And then with I'm also now starting to do these five day mentorships. This is a newer offering that I just started doing. I'm just craving to be back in person with people, honestly. And the five day mentorship intensive allows me to work with four people over the course of five days. So it's more in depth than like a clinic or something. And it's not a huge group. So we get to go really deep. And I'm all about going deep and like versus just like covering as many things as possible. You know, we still cover a lot of ground, but it's like I want to be able to go deep with people and their horses and And really, yeah, just like intuitively meet people where they're at versus having this whole like planned out curriculum. That's helpful, too, can be helpful. But like I'm really craving that just like meeting in the moment kind of learning environment. So, yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:01-00:43:18]
I just have to say that I love, love, love, love the description that you described that you're moving the Horse Human Connection Academy into. I just I think that is so cool, so needed. And yeah, I just I can't wait to see how that evolves.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:19-00:43:34]
Thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And I've always loved writing too, like writing, not writing. And so it's like, oh, wow, all these like threads are like kind of coming together. It's pretty exciting.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:35-00:43:42]
Absolutely. I have kind of a, it's not a strange question. It's just a little bit different question.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:42-00:43:50]
And that is, it seems to be that so many people are like, seeking, they want to go viral.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:50-00:44:09]
They want to like have an Instagram account and go super viral. And, you know, and I have all of that and you, you have experienced rising to fame. What was that like? How has that changed for like, for where you are now? Um, yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:09-00:48:25]
Hmm. Yeah. Um, there's so much I could say about this. Um, I think it's not what you think it is, for one, I guess. I know I had this idea in my head of like, oh, if I get this many followers or this many views or accomplish this thing, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a following on Instagram. You know, it could be achieving something, it's like, well, then I will feel blank. You know, then I will feel like I belong here. Then I will feel like, you know, my work is, like, respected or taken seriously. That's a big one, right? Or I will feel seen, you know? Like... There's so many, like, deep-seated needs that I think are absolutely missing. Like, that, like, Francis Weller talks about, you know, the five gates of grief. And one of the gates of grief is, like, what we as humans expected and did not receive in the culture and age of modernity that we find ourselves in, right? And so it's like there's these really deep seated needs that aren't getting met that I think we think, oh, well, if I get this following or I do this thing, then I will feel these things. And it's just not true. It just magnifies everything. It distorts everything. For me, it was really confusing. There is there's a lot of projection. There's a lot of dehumanizing. It's confusing. really something I don't want to be a part of at all quite frankly um but it's like okay well now I have this platform I don't even fully know that I it's like you know because there's this voice of like oh you have the platform you know you should use it for good you know whatever and part of me is just like I don't know what good can come out of this thing I just you know I don't know I'm questioning my relationship with social media in general right now and and what to what degree I want to be a part of that scene um yeah and if I do use it moving forwards I just I use it knowing that I it's not a replacement it's not a replacement for getting those deeper needs met for um connecting with people in person through this work um Yeah, it's just it's hard. I feel like it's just going to magnify whatever thing like or shadows or, you know, whatever is kind of under the surface. It's just going to magnify all of those things. At least that's what happened for me. And. Yeah, trying to think if anything else is coming through on that for me right now, but. Yeah, the whole concept, I think, is. is pretty challenging to have even like a benefit, like a beneficial relationship with it. I don't know. Yeah. I don't have the answers, but I'm definitely questioning it and what part I want to play in it. If, if at all, you know, like, I think there's this, this whole thing of like, oh, well, you know, we have to run our businesses through social media. Like we have to be on there to market them. And it's like, Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And no, like, you know, like there are other ways of connecting with people and getting your work out there. Um, they're not as talked about right now, you know, um, I think word of mouth is still the most, I think it's been proven that it's still the most effective, you know, quote marketing tool that there is. Um, So it just takes longer, right? It's not like you're going to do a video to go viral and now you're being asked to go teach clinics all over the world or something. So, yeah, I don't know. More questions than answers. But I know that it's dehumanizing. It's dehumanizing to be put on that kind of pedestal and platform for both the person on the platform and the people interacting with the person on the pedestal or the platform. You know, it's just... Yeah. Yeah. I don't like it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:26-00:48:32]
Thank you for answering that and being so open about it, because I just think it's an important conversation to have.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:33-00:49:13]
yeah it is it is and it's like you know it's like i could sit here talking about it all day some people are just gonna have to live it out like live that journey yeah yeah absolutely when i was younger and i would have heard someone saying you know it's not really i would have been like okay yeah whatever no um yeah yeah yeah i don't know lots there's a lot there there's a lot there yeah Maddie, I've been asking everybody this question that comes on the podcast because once again, I just I feel like this is also a very important conversation and very relevant conversation within the industry.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:13-00:49:17]
What is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:18-00:49:36]
My hope is that. We are able to really listen to our horses, and I'm going to widen that and say not just our horses, but all of our more-than-human kin. I think they have a lot to say, and I don't think we're listening.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:38-00:49:49]
Absolutely. And then we have four rapid-fire questions that we also ask every guest, which is like the first thing that pops to mind. Do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:50-00:49:51]
Ink your tears.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:53-00:49:55]
Oh, did you say thank your tears?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:55-00:49:56]
Drink.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:56-00:49:58]
Oh, drink your tears. Okay. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:59-00:49:59]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:00-00:50:02]
Ah, can you elaborate on that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:03-00:51:13]
I first heard it from Frances Weller and I mean, it would be nice to, for folks to just like sit with the image for a moment. Like I'm imagining tears falling, cupping my hands and like literally drinking and getting nourishment from those tears. Right. Right. And water is, like, you know, one of our biggest needs as a human. So I, yeah, maybe just sit with the image and see what comes to you. What comes for me is how much nourishment our tears have and our grief. I feel like grief is, like, this dirty word in our culture. And I feel like it is, like, the most important thing right now, personally. And it... it holds grief holds these cleansing waters of purification and, um, regeneration. That's the word I was looking for. And, um, yeah, I feel like this is a skill that we could all develop and I think it's what's needed right now for, for people, for horses, for the earth.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:51:14-00:51:41]
Um, yeah. I love that so much. Drink your tears. It's like, ah, Yeah, I just I get so much from that. Thank you for thank you for saying that. For me, I just I find that it's, it gave me the whole full body experience of that. Second question, who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:51:43-00:52:14]
Okay, this is a hard one because I've had so much inspiration and influences. But I think right now, like in this moment, it's Martine Prechtel. He wrote three books, like a trilogy of connecting with his horses. And they're amazing. I highly recommend that they're listened to on audio. But it's just a total like perception shifting book. way of looking with our, like our relations with horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:16-00:52:23]
Interesting. Okay. Write that down, everybody. The next one, if you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:24-00:52:37]
Listen to your body. Your body knows. And if your body is telling you something isn't right, it's not right. Even if they're an expert, you are the expert of your own experience. And that is valid. Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:38-00:52:47]
Say it louder. Yes, absolutely. 100%. Love that. The final one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:47-00:52:54]
The road back home. Back home to our own bodies and the body of the earth.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:56-00:53:06]
Love. Love that. Maddie, is there anything that you want to, like, for us to link in the show notes for people to find you, connect with you, all of the things?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:08-00:53:51]
Oh, I don't know. Everything needs updated. If you go to my website, it's like, yeah, everything needs updated. I am sharing writing right now, writing that you can listen to in like a podcast style, like audio form. I record them. So it's, yeah, we can link it in the notes, but it's a very long name, but Demeter, the Wild Rose and the Raven on Substack. So yeah, we could we could link that in there. But that's my Substack where I tend to be hanging out a bit more these days and writing and just longer form ways of sharing versus these quick soundbites. So that's hanging out more.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:51-00:54:10]
I've been loving Substack. I will happily link that in the show notes so that more people can find Substack as well. And yeah, this has been an absolute pleasure for me. There has been so much wisdom in and amongst this. And I hope that people take away from this as much as I have. So thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:10-00:54:11]
Yeah. Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:13-00:54:46]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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