#68 The Importance of Saddle Fit for Horse AND Rider with Jochen Schleese

[SPEAKER 2]
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On this episode, we're talking with Jochen Schleese, founder of the internationally recognized saddle company Schleese.

[SPEAKER 1]
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The most important part, number one, fit the rider first, full stop. Then fit the horse. Without fitting the rider first, the horse will never, never be comfortable.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from Wehorse. My name is Danielle Crowell, and I'm your host. Jochen Schleese is a former member of the German Young Riders three-day event team and qualified for the European Championship in 1984. Unfortunately, he had to retire his horse due to lameness, which abruptly ended his riding career. Years later, through research, Johan discovered his horse's lameness was caused by damage to the scapular cartilage from an ill-fitting saddle. This was the catalyst for his lifelong mission to prevent saddle-related damage for all horses. In 1985, Jochen became a certified master saddler, and throughout his work, he later discovered that many female riders struggle with pain and health issues from riding in saddles designed for male riders due to pelvic and anatomical differences. Now, Schleese Saddlery Service is the world leader in anatomically appropriate saddles, which can be fitted and adjusted according to the biomechanics of movement and the development of the horse through personal on-site or online saddle fit evaluations. We have so much to discuss, so let's get started. Johan, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to speak with you today and to talk all about Schleese, so welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Thank you very much for having me.

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How did you get started with saddle design and fitting? Can you bring us back to the beginning?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Well, I wanted to do something with anatomy. I always thought, well, maybe I become a doctor or a veterinarian, but my grades were not so good because I always was too much in the barn. So dad says, you got to keep going to a different school to bring up your grades to get into med school. And just writing lessons, teaching, he taught. My dad taught physics and math. He thought that was not a real job. So he had me to go to an apprenticeship. And saddle making came just as a fluke. I just did it because I thought, wow, you know, I need always my tack repaired. I always need stuff. Maybe I do this apprenticeship so I can help myself. And while I'm doing that, I was really, really enjoying it, working with my hands, creating something and fixing my own tack. And I came up with questions and asked the master, I said, why is that? He says, man, you are the dumbest apprentice I ever had. And I remember my dad always said, there is no such a thing as dumb questions, only dumb answers. And the person who knows how will always follow the person who knows the why. So if you don't understand, ask. So when we asked them, why do we do it like this? Then they said, well, we always done it like this and just go and do it. And then I said, as a rider, I wouldn't want my saddle doing this or my bridle or my splint boots or my reins. You know, it just didn't make sense. And anyway, so I stuck with saddlery, did my journeyman after three years. And then I never went back to school. I liked it so much that I did my journeyman and then my master's. And then I became a master saddler.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Awesome. And I know from your bio as well that there was, you were an inventor, correct? And there was a bit of a lameness issue with your horse. And through research and all of that, you came to realize that it could possibly have been because of saddle fit. Is that correct? 100%.

[SPEAKER 1]
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And this was really what I always want to remember as long as I live. is that through my own egoistic thinking and false pride, I guess, I really hurt my horse unintentionally. And here's how it went. So when you ride up the rank, companies come. And I wasn't even in salary. I was still a junior rider, still going to school back then. They ask you, oh, if you ride in this saddle, you lose. can get a little money and get a little sponsored. And as a kid, when you start and you climb up the rank, you feel like a king. And of course, there was always a company who all the top riders had. And I always wanted to have that. And eventually, and at that stage already was into my journey many years, that company finally approached me and says, okay, we know you're trying for the Los Angeles Olympics and we want you to ride the best saddles. And here are the... And I was so happy. And Daniela, you wouldn't believe it. My horse went different in the saddle. Not good different, bad different. But I had the cool saddle, what everybody else had. And they give you the jackets and the hat and quite a bit of a cash. So that was, of course, very flattering and helpful. We all who are horseback riders know how expensive horses can be. So... And I... Rather than to my, back then, there was no osteopath, massage therapist, or veterinarians who looked a little bit deeper in chiropractic or acupuncture. You know, the good old saying, you know what, he just has a bad day, give him a good smack, ride him through it. And most of the time, it went okay after 20 minutes. Hardly to find out, over all this research I come up now, Every horse will go okay. Every horse will go through it because it takes approximately 20 minutes to make the nerve or the pain go numb. Now, horses are massive animals, strong animals, but they are also extremely great in hiding pain. They're doing this in 35 million years to hide the land that's for the predators. It's in their DNA. So if you don't pick up the subtle little signs, that's where things fall apart. So with me, I didn't pick it up. So when he was retired, because he gave up, you know, I could really see how the light in his eye disappeared. And we had him through many, many tests and research, which was available back then, only then to say, you know what, he's not making it through the big sport. And then my hard horse was gone. So that was really, really hard for me. And then, as I said, years later, after he was already retired, I came in my career across more and more people who are asking questions like I did at the apprenticeship. Now, why do you make a saddle like this? Because the horse's anatomy is ABC here, and you should never have a pressure there. And I went like this. That's how they showed me. Well, can you not build a saddle around it? Of course you can. Why don't you? What did I say? Same what my master says. Because we always did it like that. So rather than to advance... the making of the saddle, to how the vets and the body workers advance in their technology. Think about phones. Think about technology. We advance. So if we know through medical or veterinarian care and research what came out and the tools they have now, certain items are long-term damage to horses. And that's what I saw when I was a student. I went to Utrecht University of... In Holland, there was a horse running on the treadmill, and that horse had a rider on top. And underneath the saddle, into the trapezius muscles, camera size of your hair, was injected. There they could see how the saddle squished the tissue and where the shoulder blade come back. And that's exactly what happened to my horse, because that famous saddle, what I rode, was It was great, looking great, and I felt amazing in it, but it didn't fit the horse. And when I saw that, I said, you know what, this is horrible. Because I called my dad, I ran over to the auditorium, and I said, Daddy, I know my calling. Nobody should ever lose their hard horse, their friend, their horse, because not knowing what is possible we can do for these horses. And that's why I decided to build an academy. First, I flew around the world five, six times. That was very tiring. And I felt I don't reach enough people. Then I wrote a book called And which is one of the best seller for print. It's a many, many universities who teach anything about horses. So very proud about that. And then it says, I still don't reach enough people. So then we created an online school called saddle fit for life, where we have four different level of saddle fitter courses. And we also have information, the key simplest, simplest elements. Every horseback rider should know, just like if I drive a car, Okay, if I live somewhere deep, deep in the jungle in Australia and Africa where I'll be the only person that has a car, who cares if I have a driver's license? But in most countries, you need a driver's license. You need the rules of the road to not kill you or the people. And, okay, maybe not that drastic in the horseback riding saddle, you don't kill anybody, but you kill your best friend. And when I say that, you kill their spirit. That's what I did. So why would you want to kill your horse's spirit? I don't think anybody wants that. Even the professionals or the beginner riders, they just want to have the joy. And remember what I said, horses are masters of hiding pain. And I'm so blessed and I'm so happy to find over all these years so many professionals worldwide, professors, doctors, who are actually writing now books and not books, but they're writing reports, what they call the pain scale. Dr. Sue Dyson in England came up first with their ethogram. You know, there is saddle signs. Yeah, when the horse lays the ears back and bites you when you girth. Well, that's not a saddle sign. That's a very obvious sign, you know, and just kneeing your horse is not the answer. It says, why is he biting you with this saddle, not this saddle? So, yeah, no, it was a rude awakening for me. And I will never forgive myself that I didn't listen to my best friend. I just listened to my ego and I wanted to write that cool song. And it's going, unfortunately, still on to this day. Not with me, but with many, many writers.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I love this all so much. Yeah. There's been an awakening happening in the equestrian community. A lot of people are, like you had mentioned, no longer willing to settle for the, just ride them through it, you know, or, oh, they always do that sort of a thing. A lot of people are asking questions. A lot of people are, for lack of a better word, waking up to the communication of the horse. And With that, sometimes I feel like there's a lot of guilt involved where, you know, people almost start to shame themselves or go in a bit of a downward spiral. And rather than, and by the way, this is a ask me how I know, because I was that person. And it's almost like rather than taking action, we say, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to touch you. Like I just won't do anything at all. Or we take a really, really backseat approach. And the thing that I've, come to realize with all this is we don't know what we don't know. And, you know, once you know, once you know better, you do better. And so it's, it's having these conversations with people like yourself that, you know, we can start to educate the horse community and, and help them take a more empowered approach with their riding and with their horse. And so I just, I love that, that, you take that approach with it is you really look at the communication of the horse and it goes so much beyond X, like square peg, round hole, or, you know, X, Y, Z. It's really looking at the horse as an active part in this. And one of the things too, that I really, really love is that you also look at male versus female, which is so interesting. I really want to go into that. But before we do, There's two things that I want to ask is one that you mentioned the saddle fit you really well and it felt really great for you, but it didn't work for your horse. And that's an interesting thing because a lot of people forget about the fit of them. They think of the fit for the horse or vice versa. I love this saddle. This is my favorite saddle. It works on so many horses. Well, does it? So I'd love to look at that. What are the biggest issues you see specifically for the horse's fit?

[SPEAKER 1]
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I'm going to answer this from two sides. From one, which horse trainer feel immediately. Okay. They feel, they have a very good feel to the ride, to the horse, and they can feel if the horse instantly steps off this mounting block with a push from behind. They step forward. Or if they feel, oh, it's a little sucked back. And they also feel if the base of the neck doesn't lift. They also feel they have a little bit more horse on the right leg than the left leg. So these are subtle signs. I give you good advice. If there's a pebble in your shoe, that's not a sad sign. But if you have a wrinkle in your shoe, in your sock, the sock is just wrinkled. Depends where it's on the foot. It's also a very annoying sign. But some people can say, I just walk with the socks wrinkled. So for somebody who's just moving around, not an issue. For a ballroom dancer, a skater, a massive issue. So these are subtle signs the horse gives you. When the horse is leaning, he's not coming through the pole because it can literally happen from one day to the next. And I'm not saying he got bitten, he got cast, saddle broke. The horse has had enough. And remember, the horse is working through it. So these are the subtle signs. The most obvious signs are The horses are not coming anymore when you want to fetch them from the field. Right? You need all kinds of tricks, from buckets to treats. The sign is he's in the cross tie. And you see he's kind of avoiding you with a brush, especially when you go to the saddle area. And you look at the brush. This is the softest brush. And you just brush him any day the same. You gently put the brush through the body and stroke him. You hit the area and he's quivering away. So that's how it starts. You can also, a subtle sign for people who start with horses, we know, oh, when they have white in the ears and they show me the teeth and the ears go back, well, that's a very obvious sign. But if you're not growing up with a horse, you're like 40, 50 years old and the very first time, you're learning all that. For people who ride and grow up with horses, they find You go close, he's swishing with the tail. There's no fly, but he's always swishing at you with the tail. Saddle signs. So the other thing is, of course, we know things. Oh, it's me. It's me. I can ride in anything. So long as it's a horse, I'm okay. I can do anything. So the horse will show you by not tracking up. Every horse in the wild, when they walk, same with you, when the saddle fits. The very first thing they're going to do is bring the top of the withers the highest point. Why? Remember my dad? Person knows the how, but always follow the person knows the why. So the reason they do that is because there's this massive cable touch from the pole to the withers, to the SI, to the start, all the way back to the hocks. It's called the nuclear dorsal ligament system. When the head is down, That cable lifts the rider, the saddle, the horse, the trunk, the muscles, the gut, everything. So they don't need strength to carry us. They use a cable system. If you think about a teeter-totter, when one person is up, the other person is down. So if you want to have, I can't ride through the forest or jump with a horse's head down, okay? Okay. Then the horse needs to learn to engage his muscle and carry us with different muscle groups rather than the cable system. So back to seeing how I know my saddle doesn't fit. So if you walk off the mounting block and you trust your horse to give a little rein, is he dropping his head and make his neck long? If not, if his head goes up, he's guarding because something is poking him. Because by nature, that's what they do since 35 million years. The other thing he's doing is if you have a friend or you put your phone there and watch him, watch the first eight circles. One circle to the left, one circle to the right. In walk, his hind leg needs to step over the imprint of the front leg's imprint without you hitting him, right? So two circles, one left, one right, trot the same. You just look at the sand. If the leg doesn't track up, oh, he's a bad horse. Bad horse, naughty horse, oh, he's not an Olympic horse, has nothing to do with it. See, if you are a really incredible tennis player or you're the worst tennis player in the world, you still know how to place one foot for the other and walk balanced. In order for the horses to walk balanced, they're stride up. They reach with the hind leg over the front leg. That's what nature puts. So his front legs, which are very flimsy and brittle. So there's a side note here for anybody who really wants to learn something cool. There's a super video that just came out from England. And unfortunately, let's see if I find it here on the line. The name just... I lost it here, but... Oh, here it is. Horses and the Science of Harmony. Google it on YouTube. It blows your mind. And... when we ride and the horse shows us issues. Now, of course, the horse could have other lameness issues, but I'm going to answer your question by saying, let's say he's not lame. Let's say he's all okay. He has a good charade and he has no teeth issue, okay? All right, so if the horse shows you any behavior issue in canter, he can't forebeat, he can't hold the one circle canter, he cross canters, he doesn't even take your lead, In rising trot, like his tail is totally crooked, his head comes up just like you come up out of the saddle. He doesn't stretch. His tail, as I said, is constantly throwing around. These are little signs. And anybody, beginner, Olympic rider, should look for them. Don't wait, like a professor told me once, don't wait until it's numb. Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
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What about the rider? What about when a saddle doesn't fit a rider? What are some of those signs?

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Okay. The rider is very, very easy because we can talk. And when I would teach you a ride, I would do a little exercise before you go on the horse. I want to see how flexible your heels are. I says, okay, stand with your legs 24 inches apart. And put your hands in front of you like you are a Tai Chi person and go in the half squat. And then show me how you can hold that half squat. In Tai Chi, that's a Tai Chi stand. And you'll be very, very balanced in that position. So if I would come with a fingertip and hit you on the left shoulder, you wouldn't go to the left or to the right, vice versa. If I push you from the back, you have very strong position. Now I ask you to bounce up and down in your ankle. So I can see your ankles work, your knees work, your hip work. Now I say, put your hands up with the palms forward. Why don't you pretend you have reins in front of you? And then I take a picture from your side. And wouldn't you know, shoulder, hips and heels, one line, toes in line with your knees, all forward. So now you sit on the horse. Because we as humans have always narrowed than the horse's rib cage when you look from above, it's always harder to get that position I just described in standing on a horse. Because even if you are a super gym person and super flexible and you can do a male split, your knees don't bend much. like your shoulders or your hip bend. They just bend back and forth. So when you have something extremely wide, like a horse in between you, your toes and knees bend out. See, if you watch, and I grew up bareback riding. We played games. I did vaulting. I did anything. I felt the most connected bareback riding. But bareback riding, we do not do our body any good. This is why when you go to the, what was that? Kentucky. Beautiful horse museum in Lexington. Everybody should see it. And you wonder, oh, look at this. When the Western civilization came over to North America and they fought the natives, They all have no saddles. And then the natives, 50 years later, all had saddles. If bareback riding was so much better, why do people always switch to saddles? Because the saddle lifts you just a little bit away from the wider ribcage. So now you can stand like a Tai Chi person. In other words, shorter hips and heels, one line. If you have the right fit, There is absolutely no reason why you cannot ride in the crotch or fork seat or in the riding seat. Okay. Crotch seat is when your first impact is your front crotch and your knee is further back than your sternum and your foot is behind you. That's a crotch seat. Okay. Fork seat is if your leg is stretched and in the same position. Nobody wants to ride like this.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Okay.

[SPEAKER 1]
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But you would not, you could do it without getting a hip cramp. We all as riders had this hip or butt cramp. And what do we immediately do? We lift our knees up and put our legs in front of the saddle to release that pain on the hip. So a saddle that fits the rider good can easily sit shoulder, hips and heels in line without having this butt cramp. It is not possible if you are not sitting in the right saddle. And the right saddle has nothing to do with the right seat size. It's just one out of nine important factors. The most important part is, pardon me to be so direct, but it's hard to explain this over radio, over phone, over audio, is if you would... Put your palm on your upper inner thigh so your thumb is right at your crotch. And then do this other hand the same. And you end this Tai Chi stand. The distance from your thumb, left to right, and the distance from your ring finger, left to right, are two measurements on your physique, on your body. It's nothing to do with what causes you right. This is just what you are, what you measure when you're 24 inches standing with your legs apart. That measurement determines how your weight is catched in your seat, crotch area where you have your hands, without ripping your thighs apart like a chicken wishbone. If that measurement, these two measurements, distance from thumb to thumb and ring finger to ring finger, what your body dictates does not simulate in the seat and in the tree below, It will never fit the horse or fit you because you will compensate. So these are a clear sign if it doesn't fit you. If you can't have those three seats without having butt cramp. And it doesn't matter if it's an English saddle, western dressage or jumping a general purpose, or if it's a western saddle. It makes no difference. Then the other good sign is you can't sit the trot. Sitting the trot is actually easier than most people think. It's because you are fighting, somebody's ripping your hips apart. Or the curvature left to right under your butt cheek and front to back doesn't match yours. Okay, so you're constantly... A good analogy is something like, if I'm like... make you stand on the bozo ball. A bozo ball is like a ball with a board on top that wibbles. So now you're very wibbly. Okay? And without me showing you what I do, I put my foot on the edge and I constantly hit it. It wibbles around. It says, for the love of God, can you stand quiet? So you have an interference there. That's me pushing on where you're standing. So when a person can't sit the trot, something is thrown which is your subconscious mind, says, that's not my feel. I can't fit in that. Maybe an easy example is a shoe. If you're a beautiful volleyball player or a sprinter or anything you need to excel fast from left to right, it's going to be super hard to be a good athlete if your shoe, you fly out of the shoe or the shoe is so tight that you get such a cramp of blood blisters. It is not... physical possible for that athlete. And riding is an athletic sport. It's a sport. We consider this a sport. Sure, you can say, I'm not doing horse shows. Well, then call it hobby. I don't care. So the fact is, your brain is so tuned when you're six months to 12 months old to learn to go from crawl to walk. And once you learn from crawl to walk, that your ball of the foot is under your sternum, you can walk as a baby. And we keep that. Our sense of nervous system has that until we stop being able to walk at all because we're so old we can't walk anymore. So for us, having set the balance, our sternum over the balance, that's why we have the ball of the foot in the sternum. And the foot needs to be aligned with the sternum. Look at the jockey. who rides horseback racing, where is his leg and where is his sternum and where is his butt? Ball of the foot, sternum, no matter what you ride. So my point is, if the saddle doesn't allow you to sit the trot, have your leg underneath you, or somebody constantly grabs your thigh and says, your leg is turned out, and grabs your thigh and turns it over, you cannot relocate your muscles on your body. Full stop. You're born with that. Just because you want to be a horseback rider, you can't really rotate your legs. It makes no sense to me. So the saddle, however, dictates if you have a rolling thigh, a flopping lower leg, or a quiet leg. So we as a male have, unfortunately... A couple anatomical advantages when it comes to match our thighs and crotch to the horse's back. That's not what I made up. This is what's been explained by medical doctors who understand biomechanics and physiology.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Can we talk about the difference with that? I find this, I mean, everything that you've spoken about is... I'm just like, I'm soaking this in. I find it so fascinating and so interesting. Here in North America, the sport, especially in the lower levels of the sport, is primarily women. And no one other than Schlese really talks about women Saddle fit specifically for women. So I would love to know the differences between the male and female saddle fit and saddle design. Yeah. What do we need to look for? Okay.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So as I was mentioning earlier, my passion was to help so many people to not hurt their best friend, their horse. Yeah. And just like they teach since 400 years to this day still in the Spanish riding school, the most important aid from the rider to the horse is their seat. Even if you say, I know how to ride, they'll put you for a year on the launch line before you're allowed to touch the reins. They want you to see if you can control the horse with your seat. So if I, as a human, learned to walk when I was 9 to 12 years, months old, a standing person in Tai Chi, or let's say just standing and sitting, the only difference is your weight is on your seatbelt. Standing, your weight is on your feet, which is on your legs, and these legs are attached via hip sockets to your body, to the pelvis. So the hip sockets are very closely related where you're sitting to on your saddle, the seatbelts. The hip socket, a different location on the pelvis on the male versus the female. We call it the axis of the pelvis. They're still on the side, but more forward on the female. So therefore, your pelvis axis is more forward. So if I were to grab a pelvis and I balance it on my hands with my hand, the seat bones are on my hand. Very easy with the male pelvis because the hip sockets, are you ready for this, are over the seat bones. So for a male beginner rider, all guys sit on the horses. I don't know what all the fuss is. I can't sit very balanced. I have so many stories I can tell you. It doesn't matter if I was in Asia, I was in South Africa, in Europe, no matter where. There's without a doubt always a husband-wife team where he just comes along because he loves her so much and he rides because he wants to be with her. She has all the passion and who gets all the applause? He does.

[SPEAKER 2]
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It's another way in most things, not just horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
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But it's even more unfair than with the riding. And again, this is not done because of male chauvinistic. It's just Because it was explained to me by a gynecologist because of what they call childbirth. And the body parts, we don't have a uterus. We don't have the female parts and the female doesn't have the male parts. So the male genitals hang outside, yours are inside. So that's an important factor to know when you buy a saddle. If you are a male, you will never ride on a female saddle because you do one stride and you turn, you either faint or you got to compromise so much to not hurt yourself. See, the very first things, men made saddles for men since thousands of years. And only in the late 70s, the majority of the rider worldwide, not just here in North America, are women. In 78 years. To this day, I remember how much I yelled at my students because they did not sit upright. I feel horrible now after I learned how saddles are made for male by male. Sure, there's some female saddle makers, but they are very rare to find. Right. Go to Alaska and look for gold. You don't have more luck. So my point is you have this industry, what is very male-dominated industry, Macho, here comes the prince, and here he comes on his high horse. It all changed a little bit. And even in South America or India, where it's very macho-like still, or the man rides, still the majority, maybe not as high as North America, that's 95%. Germany is 80%. A female rider, 75% in Western. So back to your original question. When I learned how to make silos, the first my master silo told me, when you form the seat right under the crotch of the rider, make sure you make that roof nice and pointy. Remember me? The person knows the how as far as the person knows the why. Why do we need that? Man, you are a dumb apprentice. The amount of questions you ask drives me nuts. And then he says, I thought you were a rider. You must be a really bad rider. No, I was ashamed and didn't ask anymore. But he says, okay, I'll tell you. Every rider needs to sit in the saddle with the roof peak so it pushes the male part left or right. There's not a single woman who wants to or can physically sit properly in a saddle that has that roof peak in the crotch. It rubs, it hurts. Dr. James Mawson wrote the book, The Rider's Pain-Free Back. Okay? And he's a neurosurgeon. And he says the amount of women who have chronic bladder and kidney infection from a saddle is insane. And I was thinking, what? From a saddle? And then second, when our Canadian team member, Ashley Monroe, her name was, or Nika was her name back then. She came to me and she says, you know, you need to get me a saddle. It doesn't hurt me. And more and more women came towards me and says, oh, you come from Germany. Can you not make us out of what hurts me? And one of them brought me the gynecologist to my shop. And he says, you need to butt cast people. So how do I do that? Well, do it like a dentist. Take a mold. So anyway, we figured it out. And we have to this day have a room what we call our butt museum in Canada, where we have all the cast. And the difference in that, you don't have to be a doctor or a writer. You see it immediately. From the side, it looks like a V where the guy's sitting. I don't care how big or small or tall the guy was. And like a U looks where the woman's sitting. And the first impact was the pubic symphysis. And for sure, you did not want a rooftop there. Not only do you bruise your bony part on the front of the pelvis, which, by the way, is way higher on the male versus on the female. We never hit the front of the pelvis. Never. But a woman sitting on a male saddle, you have to tip unnatural in your lumbar region, like your lower back. You pull it back to protect yourself without you even knowing. It's happening automatic. Like if I step on a little pebble stall, I'm not going to say and tell myself, okay, now you slowly lift the weight of that ball of the foot, roll the foot over to this. No, it happens like seconds. It happens so fast. And the same with riding. Before you keep hitting. So now somebody yells at you. Sit up and ride. And positions your thigh. Because your thigh doesn't work. And wants you to ride. The way is absolutely impossible. And just like horses. I don't know. Guys wouldn't do it. Women have a way higher pain tolerance. They somehow blend that pain away and ride. To the fact that they have deformity. And this book here, that's the one I quoted from Dr. James Wilson. The doctors have to write books like that. So back to your question, why are we the only people who talk about it? Because it's healthy for the industry. As long as you have, as compared to another industry. Let's say I make a lot of money to give you a lot of pills. Do I want you to heal or do I want you to keep your semi sick? So you keep buying pills, pills, pills, pills, pills. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So we know which industry we talk about here. And the same with the saddle industry. Why would I want to give you a saddle? So you don't come back for constantly refitting, restuffing, refitting, restuffing. And then it helps also the horse selling business industry because now it's not so good. Let's sell you another horse. It also helps the constant riding lesson. It's so ridiculous. And you know who pays the price? A horse. And that's my calling. I am so sick and tired that we have to purposely or unpurposely hurting these horses just to gain money in one or the other person's pocket. Sure, I sell saddles. I make a living paying my saddles. But I will... refuse herding horses for me to gain more money. And I will not hire anybody who is in the mind trap of, oh, just tell the half truth. For goodness sakes, we got five of the cameras since the 90s. We got computerized saddle pads. We have phones, an iPhone, what takes a face ID to open it. With that camera, you can take for free 3D images of your horse. So it's unbelievable. And they can then give you every square inch of the horse's body's measurements. You could live in Timbuktu. You could live in Singapore. You can live anywhere and have your 100% measurements, which you took with your phone. So what I'm saying is that we have not only massive advancements in the human, in the medical, as well as veterinary field. We also have advancement in technology. Why do we have to keep saying that? Oh, let's hoard the horse. Because that's really what we're saying. Because it creates money. You know, so you never get me going with the weapons, what's going on right now in Ukraine. It makes me sick. My point is, we as humans have a choice. Do we want a saddle that fits me so I become half my weight? That was really hard for me to follow when my instructor says, a good rider is half his weight. And I was always skinny and tall and always was teased by my friends, looked like Jack and the Beanstalk. No, no, I was tall like him, but it was skinny as a twig. So, of course, I wanted always more muscle as a little boy, but my metabolism isn't allowed. So now I have to be even skinnier than, how does that work? And then he said to me, have you ever seen the heavy, heavy cowboys riding or softair ride? They're heavy, but you can be half your weight. So what I'm trying to say, yes, I weigh 200 pounds now. You can ride like 400 pounds, or you can have 200 pounds worth of moving with the horses, against the horse. That's why I mentioned to you earlier, sitting trot is so important that you learn sitting trot, so you move with the energy and flow of the horse's back. Back to the story with making yourself very light as a rider, it can only happen if the saddle fits you. So why am I the only person who teaches this? Well, this is my calling. And I love when we start talking that you say, I only hear good things. I say, that is super nice. I like that because that's what I'm trying to get. And even if people say shitty things about me, then you ask the question, why? Why would they not like to help the mission helping the horse? Because who cares what I say? Really, let's say this guy is full of it. Why don't we listen to what the horses say? When so many universities develop pain scale, the ethogram of the horse, and it's clear you have two favorite silos. One is brown, one is black. On the brown one, he bites your arm off every time you girth up. On the other one, same saddle. He doesn't do anything. So, obviously, if the horse can picket, right? So, oh, he doesn't like brown. Come on. I don't think that's really the case. But if the horse can tell you, and we can tell when white in his eyes is, okay, then we know. For example, I love this story. There's this lady who lived with horses and with the wild. And she says it was fascinating to see how they communicate. Their slight movement, the way they positioned themselves, how they controlled the lead mare, how they controlled the herd. It was fascinating. And when I ride, you know, I need to create movement. what the horses do in the wild. What do they do in the wild? They walk a lot, 20 miles a day, and they eat a lot. Why do they eat a lot? Because that constantly creates a saliva, what breaks down the acid, because they're always worried they're getting eaten, breaks down the stress level. That chewing, the licking, we all know as riding, is important. So if you're a rider, without giving sugar, or treats, the horse is not chewing and licking and has, I call it lipstick, or a little drool coming from his mouth in the first eight circles. He's going like, and in 20 minutes it's got to be gone. Or he's biting at the bit. These are signs our ancestors noticed. Danielle, here's the best sentence that's coming now, or what I love. We have now going 180 degrees because science and technology shows us today that your ancestors, my ancestors, who worked with horses, knew what they were doing. It all goes back the way they were, making salves, fitting salves, with the only difference, we have women riding now. And if I make one comment to all our listeners who are guys who think this is all a joke, leather there's not a single guy out there who would ride with women underwear because there's not enough enough material to let the parts go left or right there will be so in pain they will never do it or women riding pants okay so if we have nine anatomical differences in the lower back pelvises muscles soft tissues complete different from male to female It is probably for me, if I follow the 400-year rule in Vienna, the most important part, number one, fit the rider first. Full stop. Then fit the horse. Without fitting the rider first, the horse will never, never be comfortable. Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:27-00:47:26]
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is just so fascinating. I'm soaking this all in, like I said before. As a female rider, I have never... You said earlier, you know, if you pick up a male saddle, I've never... I've never picked up a saddle and known if it was male or female. I've never seen a difference. I've never been marketed a difference between the two, you know, anything like that. But I have sat in saddles where I've gotten off and thought, oh, that really hurt. There's something about, like, my hips feel like they're sore, like they weren't going in the right place. You know, like, you... you feel a difference in the hip socket and I've never considered, well, maybe that's because it was designed for the hip socket to be in a different place.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:26-00:47:26]
Definitely.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:27-00:48:18]
And so I'm, I'm thinking back on these different things and it's like, Oh my gosh, if only we were told this, if only we were taught this and if only we were presented this, you know, in all these different scenarios from, from growing up, um, I just find it fascinating. And one of the things I really want to make sure that we cover in this today for everybody listening and selfishly for myself as well is the online consultation to be fitted. What is that process like? Because most people think, oh, it has to be a saddle fitter in your area to come and actually physically assess your horse or yourself. But as you've mentioned, you can do it from all over the world. So can we talk about that a little bit, the online fitting and online fit consultation?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:19-00:48:40]
Okay. Can I just, before I go into it, just give one little tip how you, let's say you're looking for a saddle. How do you recognize a male or female saddle? Yes, please. It's very easy. Yes, please. So before I start this, I want to ask you a question. Would you go to a male or female department store when you're looking for a bra?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:40-00:48:41]
No, I would stick to female.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:48:42-00:49:07]
So you're in a department store. They have both sections for male and female. You still would go to the female department. So, obviously, in certain stores, they don't have that because guys don't need it. Yes, apparently, from the Science Health episode, there are bras for guys called the man bro. But in general, guys don't wear bras. Could you identify a shirt that is made for a male or for a female? Just looking at two shirts.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:09-00:49:12]
Why? Yeah, you can see it based on the shoulder cut, usually.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:13-00:50:52]
Shoulder cut, and there's more material for the woman's breast, right? Right. So... Certain garments we wear are specific for a certain sex. As I said, jeans. A lot of people ride Western. Get it when I say it this way. Why don't you ride in male's jeans? You can ride in it. Yeah. But you're much more comfortable in female jeans. Yeah. And girl could go in both. Not as comfortable, and she has to compensate somehow. Same as riding in both sides. She could go in both sides, but she will hurt, just like you explained. A guy will never, never, never ride in a female saddle, and never, never, never ride with female jeans. He can't. He blacks out. That's in the beginning. So how do you recognize the saddle for female? In English, they have a seat, and the seam, the seat seam, has to be a minimum of two inches wide in the smallest area in the front. So an easy way you can do, if you have a dressage or jumping saddle, you take a saddle, let's say it's on the saddle stand, find the middle point from pommel to cantle, and then you place your hand on there, spread your hand. Where your pinky is, the seam has to be minimum, minimum, seven inches, sorry, seven centimeter, three inches, give or take. And then the back had got to be a minimum, where your thumb is, right, towards the cantle. That has to be minimum nine inches.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:54-00:50:58]
Okay. So if you're using like your left hand, so thumb towards the cantle, pinky towards the pommel.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:58-01:00:23]
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So that's a very basic right there and then. And then how we made our money is when I sold my patent to the bicycle company. A women's saddle has a hole where your pinky would be. There's literally a hole in the saddle opposite of a roof. So where your pink is, that seat has to be flat. You don't want foam or anything what goes on top. If you can't see it, take a pencil, lay it on the seat. See if it's flat. Most of the time, when you push with your thumb, it is super soft in the crotch. So my bicycle seat, what you see now everywhere, there's a hole in the bicycle seat to stop hurting the bicycle rider and that's why i said it become 180 degrees around in saddle making because the only saddle in the world in the hall of fame and written in the first and second world war was an u.s army saddle mcclellan what had a cutout in the crotch for the rider who rides 12 14 hours a day not hurt their blood vessel what feeds through the penis and Because that would be then a massive problem for conquer the country. So that was there 465 years ago. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. So now to your answer, the question, how do we do it long distance? I am a big, big believer that the saddle has to fit when I ride in movements. Many saddle fitters to this day only concern how the saddle fits on the horse. There's an old saying. The saddle can fit the horse okay, but it doesn't move correctly on the horse's back. There's no movement. Or the saddle can, it looks like it fits good, but it really doesn't fit. The look does not equal the fit. Because a horse has nine different back shapes. And then you, as a consumer, says, what? Why do we measure horses? This is how and why anybody who fits saddles does it properly, looks at the horse's movement before you ride. Then he measures the saddle, you and the horse. And that gets an idea, okay, now I know how these pieces fit together. And then you have him or her who fits saddles, what she'll ride after the adjustment system. And you as a beginner rider, Olympic rider, medium rider, instantly know, oh my God, my hip pain is gone. Because the rider could have pain if the saddle is off balance or not right, right? So we can help the rider or we can also see it and our saddle doesn't fit the horse, we can fit the horse. And you feel how the horse is much better, right? So if you have a saddle you can fit, comparison two boots. One are rubber boots, one are leather shoes. Rubber boots you can never resole. Leather boots you can resole. Right? So there's saddles made so you can fit and saddles you're made for so they can go ongoing fit because of all these changes. Remember what I said. The industry is keen to keep buying you shoes. Saddle, saddle, saddle, saddle. Because that's how the world goes. By creating more unnecessary, never mind. I get off tangent here. So my way of pitting dynamically is first we need to see how the horse is on the launch line. Walk, trot, canter without anything. Because as I said before, naturally they want to keep their head down and walk and their back hoof will strike in. So there we're going to see What is the horse's movements without saddle? And then we ask you to ride the horse. Walk, trot, canter. English saddles don't need a saddle pad. Saddle pads on English saddles are designed for two reasons. The main reason is to absorb the sweat and keep the saddle clean. The second reason is if the saddle doesn't fit or the horse is in cold change, the saddle saddle pads sometimes have shims. You can help yourself getting the saddle fit a little bit better compared to socks. Technically, you don't need shoes and socks. You can just go in your shoes without socks. Most skaters do that. You have no socks. So, except it's easier to wash the socks than the shoe. But sometimes you need orthotics. Sometimes you need thicker socks, right? So, If you can ride your horse without saddle pad, your saddle will paint a picture in eight circles. We can read how the hair has been compressed. And when we tell you, when we both go through the pictures, and I say, look at this hair here, look at this hair here. Well, how did you know? I didn't say it in the video that he's leaning to the right. Well, you could see how he was bowing out, and therefore how much pressure, when the saddle goes to the right, you went to the right, how much pressure is now on the right? See how the hair is all ruffled up on the left? We will walk you through, which is so logical. And sometimes we can help you by saying, you know that pad you have? Put one tea towel on this side or there. And then instantly the feel that your horse is bowing out is gone. It's not how much you stuff in the saddle or what you necessarily use to correct a problem. It's to know where to put it. So the most important part is, of course, the measurements from you and the rider and the saddle. So we give you very simple things to do. Get yourself a ruler. If you don't have a ruler, you can get a tape measure and a binder twine, like a long piece of thread. And then we ask you to measure around your widest part of your thigh, measure your upper leg, lower leg. Just follow the instructions. And then we give you a couple of points on the side of the measure. And then the horse is the easiest because you take your phone. It's a free app. You hold on the horse. You literally, as I said earlier with the face ID, right? And you hold it and it stops vibrating if you're right height. So if you keep going higher and higher, it keeps vibrating again. Wherever it stops vibrating, you hold it. And all of a sudden, it takes a picture by itself. And then you have sent us that. All you have to do is make sure the horse's head is not bent way to the left or right and he's standing like a hammock and somewhat square because it's just a reference. Remember what I said? The horse has nine different backs. So this, we call it the neutral back or the static fit. It gives us an idea if the measurements of the saddle are The curvature of the panel, the length of the saddle fits it. I go back to kiddie school. I don't know. I happen to have grandchildren, and one of the things they're fascinating is this ball, and each side has a star. There's a rectangle. So they have to match the pieces to go in there. My little grandson, Wilder, gets very frustrated if he can't get that rectangle in that round shape. He actually figured it out. There's many, many people riding their horses with a rectangle on the round shape. And they wonder why the horses are naughty. So that will help us with measurements. So then, he says, great, now I have the issue. Depends what saddle you have. We're now building, we're having, I think, one, yeah, four different systems at Schleser where we can help you without you even having ever a saddle fitter there. how to fit the saddle. The most common one is where one comes out and they do all the stuffing and the fitting and the tree adjustment on side. But we have, from those four systems, three systems where we can help you and tell you how to adjust your saddle. One of them looks like this. People have seen it before where you change the gullet plate. Okay, so you have, we have a saddle where you'll be able to change the gullet plate yourself. From the measurement, we know which one it is. The difference between the old common ones, there's over 13 companies who use it, what is yellow or blue, it's the shape. You can see how short this is versus this. You can see how that is much longer and curls back. And why is it calling back? Because all army saddles, all western saddles, have the bars longer on the bottom, and they curl back towards the shoulder blade. For me, it makes absolutely no sense to poke something into the scapula going forward.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:00:24-01:00:25]
Right, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:00:25-01:02:29]
So you have that. And then you have one of our side lines have a system where you don't need to change it. You actually open it with an Allen key. And by opening it, it's like driving a car with a clutch. Once you push the clutch, you can shift the gears. So the screws opens the teeth. You adjust it, and then you close it. And it's literally very, very fast. So while you're holding your phone, I mean, you need three hands. So hopefully you have an assistant or one of those tripods, whatever. And then it says, okay, show me from this angle. Okay, no, that was too much. Go smaller. Okay, go on the right. Oh, my God, this is amazing. And after you've done that four or five times, if you have one of those saddles, you say, this is really not rocket science. As a little kid, it took me four or five times for somebody to bridle my pony. Eventually, I figured it out to bridle my pony or saddle my pony. And saddle fitting doesn't have to be complicated. Really, really, really doesn't. Once you pick the right sex saddle, I have to say sex, because with different pronouns, people get sometimes offended, right? But you're born with a chromosome X or chromosome Y, no matter what you want to call yourself or what you've done to your body. Your lower back, your pelvis, your thighs, your hip sockets all have to rebuild if you want to switch from this to that. So in saddle fitting, we care about your skeletal mate. So that's pretty much that. Once you've got the right saddle, you really have something you can adapt to the horse or horses. Let's say you own four or five horses. Who in their right mind can afford four or five saddles and constantly have their fillet? The industry has the answer for it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:02:33-01:04:06]
Well, I think I'm going to – I know what I'm going to be doing this afternoon is – Because as I'm hearing this, I'm like, oh, okay. Like the little ping, the little ping, ping, ping, all of these different things where I'm thinking of, I have two horses and I'm thinking of the little things, the subtle things I've noticed in each of them. I noticed the things I've noticed, like what I've noticed in myself, you know, all of these different things that maybe I've been like, oh, okay, well, quote, good enough, you know, or something like that. And I'm thinking, okay, it doesn't need to be good enough, Danielle. Like it can be great. It can be, you know, and, and I'm hearing what you're saying and, and I'm, I'm feeling those pings. And I hope people listening will, will feel that as well, because like I said, once you know better, you do better. We don't know what we don't know. So it's, it's having this information and feeling the empowerment of the horse owner to know this stuff themselves and to learn these things, um, rather than just blindly relying on, on somebody else to say, well, this, this fits good enough. I just, I love, love, love conversations like this. Is there any advice, whether it's related to shopping for a saddle or, um, looking at an existing saddle that you would give to somebody listening?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:07-01:06:38]
Listen to your heart, to your gut and listen to your horse. We have been mold into such a society and especially in an industry where we're so male dominance. You know, if I think back, My brother and I, we were really happy that my sister quit riding because she was way more talented and we got all the cool horses then from her. But she stopped riding because she was embarrassed, which girl says, oh, it hurts, it rubs, it bleeds, this hurts, you know, and keeps hurting and listen to her. Just to be in the cool club from back then in the 70s, you know, that was mainly, I was taught by a U.S. cavalry, not U.S., a German cavalry officer. You know, there was different times, but we evolved, as I said earlier. So we know that you have an incredible partnership with your horse. Riding is so much more than just riding. And When I read that before humans had dogs as partners, they had horses who protected us, who conquered, who fed us, who are there as our, I call horses the guardian angels of the humans. And we cannot keep abusing the horses just to foil our pockets. And the majority of people don't want to. So if I see you, Listen to yourself. Go to the right department store and listen to your horse. Don't listen to opinion. Everybody has a belly button. Everybody has an opinion. This is why I do what I do. I'm sick and tired of following opinion. I'm surrounding myself with workforce leaders, whether it's in the veterinarian field or the medical field. And when we have materials, which are much lighter for Western styles, when you have materials that goes back the way it used to be, your grandfather's time, where I can teach every horseback rider, not a driver license, but the basic fundamentals to protect the horse from long-term damage, then I reach my calling. My calling, I call it what I firmly believe here on this world for, is to share what we learn, and help the horses who care for us and protected us for so many thousands of years.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:41-01:06:53]
I just love it. We have four questions for every podcast guest. They're like a rapid fire, whatever comes to mind. The first one, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:53-01:07:11]
Well, I said it multiple times during our conversation. The person who knows the how will always follow the person who knows the why. Ask questions. Why? Yeah. That's my favorite saying.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:12-01:07:15]
Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:17-01:08:47]
I would like to say, of course, everybody picks their mom or dad first. But if I can't pick one for my parents, then I would say my master saddler, even though he harassed me the most in terms of I shouldn't ask so much. But I remember when I, we have little state championship and country. When you finish in this year, who's the best apprentice? So I won the best journeyman piece in Germany. And I was so proud. I came back to the shop where I was learning back then. And I was like king of the castle. And he looked at me and says, so you'll be pretty proud, huh? Says, yes. So, and he said to me, you know, I'm still working. I'm 66 years old. And I never stop learning. And when I'm dying and I'm looking at the grass from the other side, then I stop learning. If you have the same attitude, maybe someday you become a good saddle maker. So he took me from that very high king of the castle, think I know everything now just because I won a contest, to the level again. Yeah, there's more to know. It doesn't matter if it's horseback riding, saddles, whatever. So if we keep our mind open, keep learning, keep investing in your knowledge, only benefits the horse. So I would say he really shaped me with that saying.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:50-01:09:06]
If you could give equestrians one piece of advice now, I did just ask you if you could give advice. If you say, no, I've already given my advice, that's totally fine. If there's anything else that comes to mind, what's a piece of advice you would give?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:09:08-01:10:13]
Well, I'm using saddle fitting now. I think everybody can call themselves saddle fitter. Ask for their credentials and ask them, do you ride? And are you going to do the adjustment right here? And do you fit my horse static or dynamic? And are you helping me to find not just a way of stuffing saddle, but find a solution with the problem I have right now? A good saddle fitter should always fit three things. The bottom fit from the rider, the fit to the horse, and the wallet size to the rider, which means you can't always buy right away a new saddle. There is a solution to advance both. But sometimes I want a saddle with rhinestones. Sometimes I don't care if I get a used saddle. Sometimes I want a new saddle. And sometimes I just simply don't have the budget. So a good saddle fitter fits dynamic, static, understand the biomechanics from horse and rider, physiology, and helps you right there and then. Sorry, long answer.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:10:14-01:10:21]
No, very good answer, though. Very important answer. The last one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:10:22-01:10:24]
The guardian angels of the humans.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:10:25-01:10:29]
I love that so much. When you said it earlier, I was like, oh, so nice.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:10:30-01:10:34]
Yeah, that definitely is for me. So we have to give back. And that's why I do what I do.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:10:35-01:10:54]
Yeah. It has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. I have learned so much. And like I said, I have so many things I'm immediately going to put into action. Is there anything, we're going to link the website in the show notes, but is there anywhere else people should go or anything else for them to check out so that they can learn more?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:10:57-01:11:58]
Well, my academy, Saddle Fit for Life, has courses starting from $49 all the way to $15,000. Depends if you want just a little knowledge or make this a full-time business career. Mm-hmm. That's spelled SaddleFit, and then the number four, live, SaddleFit4Live, all one word, .com. If you want to check that out, we give tons of free educational videos on our YouTube channel for Schleser.com. It's S-C-H-L-E-E-S-E.com. Yeah, so that's something you can check out, get a lot of education, and it's based on science, science evidence-based. It's not based on opinion because on opinion, I wrecked my horse. I took other people's advices, didn't follow their credentials, and yeah, I don't want to start again, but that's what my advice is.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:11:60-01:12:10]
Awesome. We'll link that in the show notes as well. Again, thank you so much for sharing All of the wisdom that you've given us. I can't wait for our listeners to hear it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:12:10-01:12:11]
Thank you, Daniel, for having me.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:12:14-01:12:47]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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