#40 Jess Roberts: The Power of the Horse-Human Connection

[SPEAKER 1]
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On this episode we’re talking with Jess Roberts, a horse trainer and equine behaviorist specializing in the horse-human connection.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Let’s respect the situation as a whole and make sure that each of us are feeling respected and honored and safe to be wherever we are that day.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from wehorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I’m your host. Jess Roberts is the owner and trainer of Harmonized Horsemanship, an approach to horse training designed to be fulfilling and rewarding for both horse and human. Jess combines a variety of different training techniques and approaches to create a deeper connection that results in a willing and happy equine partner. Jess has studied directly with some of the world’s renowned Liberty trainers and has immersed herself in many different training approaches and styles in her lifetime. This experience, combined with a degree in psychology and years of watching and interacting with hundreds of horses, helps Jess to be a translator between horse and human. She focuses on some of the subtleties of horse behavior that are often missed or overlooked, giving the horse a voice and a choice throughout the training process. Her combination of a variety of both learned and developed techniques allows her to work with a wide variety of horse and human personality types, truly customizing her approach for each individual. I’m very excited to chat with Jess today, so let’s get started. Jess, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. We’re so excited to have you here.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Thank you for having me.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I’m so excited to talk to you today. So I’d love to go back to the beginning. How did you get started with horses and what were your first few years like as an equestrian?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, so I got the horse gene from my mom. So she actually trained racehorses for a long time. And so I was born, you know, with horses in the backyard. And so my real like equestrian life, I would say, didn’t start until I was about 18. fourth grade. Um, and I got like that really big horse age to do stuff with horses. Uh, and we’d moved to the city by then. So we didn’t have horses in the backyard. And I was just like, mom, I have to like, we have to do this. Um, and so I somehow convinced her, uh, to get me some writing lessons. And at that point I was like cowgirl to the core. I’m like, English people are so weird with their pants and their tall boots and like, That’s not real horse, like that’s not being like a real horse person. Like I’m a cowgirl. And so she took me to this barn and it was like half Western, half English barn. And we walked in and I’m in my jeans and my cowboy boots with like a horse scrunchie in my hair, like the epitome of like 11 year old horse. And we’re walking down this aisle of this barn to like, go meet the trainer. And the barn aisle had this huge window that looked into the indoor arena. And as we’re walking by, I’ll never forget it. I turned my head to look at this window and I saw this girl like jumping over a jump.

[SPEAKER 1]
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And I was like,

[SPEAKER 2]
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oh my I want to do that and so we get down to the end of the barn aisle we meet my trainer and she did both she did like some western and some English stuff and she’s like so what do you want to do and I said well I thought I wanted to do this but I just saw this person jumping and like, that’s what I want. Uh, and so I went all in. I mean, I probably drug my mom to the tax or after that, like I needed breaches. I needed half chaps.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I needed all the things.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And I started taking one or two lessons a week on school horses. And I just got, I got the itch, um, and it was happening.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So, um,

[SPEAKER 2]
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It was pretty traditional from that time. Like my journey as an equestrian was pretty traditional, like just riding lessons in an arena on school horses. And that’s how it started. And then I got my first horse a few years after that. And he’s kind of the thing that changed my entire life and

[SPEAKER 1]
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Do you wish you could have a better partnership with your horse but aren’t sure where to start? Do you want to advance your riding or horsemanship but don’t have access to the ideal resources in your area? Does the idea of learning about horse training whenever and wherever and at a price that won’t break your horse bank sound appealing to you? Check out WeHorse.com to access over 175 online courses with top trainers from around the world. We have courses on everything from dressage to groundwork to show jumping to body work. And as a member, you get access to everything in our WeHorse library to watch whenever you want. Oh, and we also have an app, which means you can download a course or video to watch without Wi-Fi, which is perfect for those days of the program when you want a quick dose of training inspiration before your ride. So what are you waiting for? Go to WeHorse.com and check out our free seven-day trial to access our WeHorse library and see if it’s a good fit for you. We can’t wait to see you in there. And now, back to the episode. Awesome. I definitely want to go a little bit deeper into that. But before I do, there’s this really, just when you were saying that, it reminded me, there’s this funny video that went around social media, and I’m trying to remember the girl’s handle. I think it’s Broke Horse Girl. I should get her on the podcast. And she’s a barrel racer, and she put up this video saying, you know, Everybody thinks, oh, you know, we’re so tough because we don’t wear helmets and everybody that wears helmets is, you know, whatever. And she’s like, have you seen the people that go around on those pancake saddles and jump over those jumps? She’s like, they’re the crazy ones. And I thought, I’ve never heard it called a pancake saddle. But maybe that’s what people call it. But it was it’s so funny how we all have our kind of our different interpretation of people. um the different disciplines um you know i i write english i’ve always written english but i’m absolutely obsessed with like the the western lifestyle and and just like style of it um i think it’s so cool so it’s it’s interesting how we kind of have you know our different interpretations now yeah you had mentioned um the the horse that kind of started it all for you um Can we talk about that? Was there a particular experience, you know, like what happened? How did that horse guide you to become the horse person you are today? Or was it, was it specifically that horse? Was it like a culmination of things? Um, what, what was it that brought you to become who you are today as a horse person? So, so it’s funny. Um,

[SPEAKER 2]
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His name was Eli, and he lived at this riding school, and he was in the stall next to, like, my favorite school horse. And so every lesson I’d be, like, tacking up my favorite school horse, and my mom fell in love with this horse next door named Eli. And he was four and wild, an appendix with, like – no shortage of, he knew what he wanted in life and he was not going to be convinced otherwise. Um, and, and my first memory of him, um, was this teenage girl who’s actually like my lifelong best friend at this point. But at that time she wasn’t, but she was on this horse in the outdoor arena and he was at a dead run bucking and she was laughing and her butt off on top of this horse. And this horse was just like unglued, like full run bucking, like a bull when he did buck, it was the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. And so I was like, mom, no, I don’t like that horse. Like he’s crazy.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I can’t ride him.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Like I couldn’t do anything with him because I was still a pretty green rider. Uh, and he was a very, very green, very green horse. Um, but my mom was in love with him. And so my trainer was going on vacation and, uh, She put me in charge because I was working off a lot of lessons and she put me in charge of this where she’s like, well, I’m gone. I need you to groom Eli every day. And I’m like, oh, like, I don’t want like I don’t like there was something about him where I was just like, I think it was he was so unobtainable for me. And I was so at that point driven to like ride and jump and show and do all this stuff. And he just seemed like the farthest thing from that.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Um, but I did what my trainer said every day. I went to the barn and I groomed him and it was the third or fourth day I showed up and I like, it was this little tiny like concrete barn and I turned the corner and he had his head out of the saw and he looked at me and he knickered. And it was the first time in my life a horse had ever, like, vocalized any excitement towards seeing me.

[SPEAKER 1]
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And he, like, lost his eye. Even if it’s, like, the millionth time, it still feels good.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I know.

[SPEAKER 1]
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It really does.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Like, still to this day when I walk out, even if I’m going to feed breakfast.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Right, and you’re like, I’m sure that’s just for me, though. I don’t care.

[SPEAKER 2]
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But it was this moment I looked at him, and I was done for. I didn’t care that he was green and young and wild. And I just, there was something immediate in that moment where I was like, Oh my God, like this is the one. Um, what I didn’t know is that my mom had already bought him.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Okay. Good thing that you liked him. Um,

[SPEAKER 2]
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She had already – I don’t know if she bought him that suit, but pretty soon after that, she bought him. And I had started working with him from that moment forward because I wanted him. And so I was doing, like, the most basic, like, walk, lunge line lessons, walking. trying to not die on this horse, but I had no business riding. Um, but my trainer believed in it. Obviously my mom did. Um, she told me we were going to lease him for a while and see what happened. And so I was under the impression we were leasing him when in reality we already bought him. Um, and that Christmas I walked around the barn aisle and he had a red bow on his altar.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Oh, what a little horse girl dream. I know. Um, um, And I cried.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I’ve never cried like that to date in my life. You know, like the videos you see on social where the kids get the horse and they’re like sobbing. And no one understands why they’re sobbing. And from that day until about 2016. So I got him in 2005. And up until 2016, that horse never stopped trying to dance. get me to figure out that how I was going about horses was wrong. He threw me off like 160 times in six months. I mean, I don’t know why my mom let me keep riding him.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, that’s a lot. I don’t know why I, like, if that was me, I don’t know if I would have kept riding him.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I was like 12, 13, 14 years old. And if I got on his back at any moment with anything other than authentic emotion, he would throw me off.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Wow. It did not, like…

[SPEAKER 2]
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to the end of his day, if I tried to like bully him, if I tried to act like I wasn’t afraid of him, if I tried to act like if I was mad at my parents and I was taking it out on him, he would throw me off his back. It did not matter how many times in a 45 minute lesson he, until I would break down and authentically share what was going on for me, he would be terrible. And as soon as I’d have a meltdown and be like, this is what I’m upset about.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Like,

[SPEAKER 2]
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This is what my dad’s doing. This is what my friends are doing. And that horse would immediately be like, okay, great. And he’d go around and jump a course perfectly and do everything like so beautifully. And it took a really long time for me to figure out what was going on. Like, I always thought I’d beat him eventually. Like, okay, look, I got the best of you. Now you’re going to do what I say. And it was finally in 2016, I’d retired him. He was never really sound to begin with. But I’d retired him and kind of thrown everything away. And I was like, you can just be who you want to be. And he walked over to me in the pasture where we were living at that time. And he laid down and he put his head in my lap. And it was my dream my whole life had been that a horse would lay down and like put their head in my lap.

[SPEAKER 1]
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That’s what I wanted.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And it was finally I let go of this need for him to be obedient or to be like what I thought he quote unquote should be. And in that moment, he was like, you got it. Like you did it good for you.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Uh, took you long enough.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Um, and I’m so glad I figured it out then because he passed away in 2018. And the last two years that I had with that horse were like the most, I mean, all we did was like lay down and snuggle and like have these beautiful conversations about what I was supposed to be doing with my life.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. Um,

[SPEAKER 2]
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but if it weren’t for him, if it would have been any other horse that would have just like given in to how I was being taught to be with horses and this like really pretty aggressive, like natural horsemanship, like competitive hunter jumper, like go, go, go. It’s your way or the highway. If any, if I would have any other horse that just gave into that, I would be a hunter jumper trainer, like riding, competing, um, pushing kids humans adult like everyone to do the same things that I had been taught and I would have missed out on this entirely magical world that I never knew could exist and that all happened because he refused to take anything other than what he knew he was worthy of in life and that’s why I owe my entire existence to that horse

[SPEAKER 1]
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I love that so much. I have a very similar story with my mayor, and it hits me in all the feels. I love that so much, and I’m so glad that he was able to have this, whether it was the space or just the stubbornness, you know, to say, I’m not going to accept any other way. And it helped you grow as an individual, so I’m just so happy about that. I hope that, you know… that more people get to experience that and and it’s a weird thing to say because when I look back on that time it was the hardest time of my life I felt yeah I felt so confused I felt so emotional I felt so raw I like all literally all of the feels um of not knowing what I was doing wrong um And so, you know, part of me doesn’t wish that upon anybody else. But the other part of me is like, yeah, but you come out so better on the other side. So it’s yeah, it’s an interesting thing. That’s that’s really cool that you you’ve experienced that. Can you tell us, when I was going through your website, I noticed something that I thought was really interesting. And that’s that, you know, there’s so many different terms for horsemanship. It’s like natural horsemanship, liberty horsemanship. I mean, like the list can go on and on. And you have something that you call respectful horsemanship. Can you describe what that means and what made you come up with that term?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yes, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I’d love to. So filling in a little bit of the blank.

[SPEAKER 2]
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So that trainer I had as a kid all the way through the end of high school, she was very well versed in the natural horsemanship. And I’m putting that in air quotes, but no one can see. But this concept of natural horsemanship. And it was all about if he does not respect you, he will kill you. I cannot tell you how many times I was told and I heard other people told around me, if your horse doesn’t respect you, he’ll kill you. And so I did everything that I was taught to create what I thought was respect. It never felt good when I was doing the things when I was disengaging the hindquarters and backing him down a barn aisle and, you know, popping the halter back and forth 80 times to like get him out of my space.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I never felt good about it. Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
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So he was respecting my boundaries. That was cool. But I wasn’t respecting his boundaries and I wasn’t even respecting my own boundaries because I felt terrible about what I was doing.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
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But I was doing it because I was supposed to. And so when I threw all of this stuff I had been taught to the wind and went on my journey to figure out how I could do this and feel good about what I was doing, at that point, I thought, well, hold on here. I’m watching horses together. There is, yes, a dominant horse, but none of the other horses seem to like him very much. they’re tiptoeing around him or her depending on the herd dynamic you know they’re like flinchy the second she moves a foot they’re all like scattering away from her and I was like oh my gosh that’s what my horse is doing with me so this idea of let’s get them to this respect I thought I had wasn’t respect it was hyper reactivity mixed with fear mixed with straight up confusion And so I thought, okay, I want to create a style of horsemanship where, yes, my horse respects me, but I also respect my horse. And each of us have permission and freedom and autonomy to respect what feels good to both of us without the threat of punishment or repercussion or fear or chaos, right? Everything I was doing with horses up until this point felt really chaotic.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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there was the side of me that would stand in the cross ties and groom my horse for like two hours and have these really beautiful moments where, you know, if he said, stop brushing me there, I was like, okay, I don’t need to brush you there. And then there was this other side of me. As soon as I entered, you know, quote unquote work mode that I didn’t care what he was saying.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Like, I have a lesson. So stop. Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
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He was supposed to do his job and he, his job was to do whatever I told him to do. And I realized that this, this big disconnect between like the inner child of me that loved the horse and the, the human that was being pulled and following the orders of someone saying, well, you can’t love him that way because then he’ll kill you.

[SPEAKER 1]
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They didn’t,

[SPEAKER 2]
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match up and so I was constantly confusing my horse because he was like well two minutes ago you were listening to me why is it now not only are you not listening to me but you’re obliterating every boundary I have and saying you have to do it and so I created this groundwork

[SPEAKER 1]
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I don’t know.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I don’t like all of these weird words, but it’s all about let’s respect the situation as a whole and make sure that each of us are feeling respected and honored and safe to be wherever we are that day and do things that feel good to both of us. And that’s really what changed most of my experience with horses is I stopped doing things that I knew didn’t feel good to my horse. And I stopped letting my horse do things that didn’t feel good to me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:20:38-00:22:11]
Right. Yeah. Now, I have a question. You had mentioned originally like working under a trainer and doing what you were told to do. And I mean, myself and I’m sure everybody listening will resonate with that. Yeah. Now, my question is, when you decided to start changing your ways, were you still riding or boarding under that trainer or that barn? And the reason why I ask is I didn’t have my big breakthrough. I started to have inklings of it when I was boarding, but I didn’t have my really big breakthrough. Breakthroughs and feeling truly authentic in my horsemanship until I brought my horses home. And that’s not I hate talking about that because it’s not something that is. available for everybody and yeah I would love to you know to be able to shine more light on because I think that when we board especially if there it’s at the boarding barn of a specific trainer um it’s hard to get away from what you’ve always been doing um you know because you’ve you have somebody watching what you’re doing and telling you what to do and all of the things. And so when you started to make those changes, were you still working with a specific trainer or that trainer? Um, or had you moved to a different location?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:11-00:23:09]
Um, yeah, so, so it was a lot of years after I had left that trainer. So essentially when I went to college, I started my own training business and I was just working out of like different barns, traveling around, um, and training people and their horses, um, And I branched out on my own a little bit. And then I did a stint where I worked for another… I worked under a bigger trainer and taught her riding lessons. And that was kind of what pushed me to the brink because it was much more hardcore than the barn that I’d grown up in. And it was very much… I don’t care if this horse is like in mild pain. I don’t care if this horse hates their job. Like this is what they have to do. And it got to the point like I was working 70, 80 hours a week and I had like a legit mental breakdown.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:23:10-00:23:26]
They clearly didn’t care about you. It’s one of those things where when you look at those people and you’re like, okay, you clearly have no compassion or empathy for the animal. And then you’re like, wait, but you also don’t really seem to have any compassion or empathy for the human.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:26-00:24:58]
Yeah, so I quit that job in the least professional way. I mean, I had a full… I drove to my mom’s house. There was a day… I had gotten pushed to like force a client of mine that I’d brought into the program to like sell her childhood horse, which like destroyed me. And on that same day, this person I was working for like had gotten pretty rough with a horse that like wouldn’t go in the cross ties. And it was like all of these things from the years of like, this doesn’t really feel good. It just like all of a sudden was like, you’re done. And I had full on mental breakdown, like to the point where my mom and I was, I was 21 or 22 at this point. My mom had to call my boss and be like, yeah, she can’t work anymore because I could not speak. I mean, I was broken, done for. And so I took a break from professional horse world. I went and worked in marketing. I got out of that. I had my two personal horses and I was happy and they were boarded at Little Barns and everything was fine. And then right around that time, that would have been like 2014 2015 ish it was that first like surge of liberty horsemanship hitting instagram yeah um where like we were seeing all these these women like with their horses like rearing up in front of them and laying down and like doing all this stuff with nothing on their body

[SPEAKER 1]
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And I was like, how? Like, how is this possible?

[SPEAKER 2]
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And so that was kind of the thing that like set me on my, okay, it’s time. I want to be working with horses. I don’t want to be sitting in an office. I want this like fairytale relationship with my horses I have now. How do I do it? And that’s what kind of sent me on like the seeking path of figuring out how to do that. And that’s when I started like, traveling to clinics with trainers that I’d never worked with in my life. And at that point, I pulled my horses out of barns and I went and rented a property at the dead end of a dirt road in like the forest. I call it my crying in the woods phase. Because I took their halters off and I was like, here’s the deal. I’m not going to do anything to you unless you want me to do it. So I also had the luxury of removing myself from the pressure of anyone around me, including barn mates. Like, let’s not even talk about trainers for a second. Let’s talk about the people that you board with that think you should be doing something.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:08-00:27:12]
Yeah, it’s definitely like, I mean, you… You can’t underestimate the power of unsolicited advice, prying eyes, of just, like, feeling somebody watching you, like, all of those things. For anybody listening, that, you know, like, it is… it is so powerful and how it can affect somebody when they may be feeling like they’re going through a bit of a transition. And even if somebody feels like they’re well-meaning by, Oh, well, have you tried this? Oh, here, maybe he needs a different bit. Like it’s all of those things. Like, thank you. That’s very nice. Um, But kindly mind your own business. It’s very overwhelming to somebody going through a transition. And like you said, trainers aside, barnmates, it can feel so judgmental when you’re making a transition, whether it’s in methods or trainers or disciplines or whatever it may be.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:27:12-00:27:43]
Yeah, and I think on that note is… helping because I do, I do work with a lot of people that will like come to a weekend clinic or a retreat with me and learn all these things. And they’re like, I can’t go back to my barn and stand with my horse for 30 minutes and do nothing. Like people are going to be like, what are you doing? You crazy person. Like why is your body folded in half while you’re holding onto your horse? And why are you breathing like that?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And so the advice that I give people is this is a beautiful opportunity for you as a human to learn how to advocate for something that you believe in and someone who can’t advocate for themselves.

[SPEAKER 1]
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And you get to do it without feeling… What am I trying to say?

[SPEAKER 2]
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It’s not, if you can’t remove yourself from a situation, it’s not going to be easy.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, it’s not going to be sustainable to the sense of like you actually moving forward with this new, like learning a new way of being with your horse. It’s not going to be sustainable if you’re always worried about, you know, what are they thinking? Oh my gosh, maybe I should just be done. I’ll only do this on the day that the barn is not very busy. Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:44-00:28:55]
And so it’s it’s learning like I’m a big. I’m terrible at it myself, but I really teach other people to set really healthy boundaries for themselves and for their horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Do as I say, not as I do.

[SPEAKER 2]
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No, I’m working on it, too. OK, but just saying like this is what works for me and my horse. If you’re curious about why it works, I’d love to tell you. If you’re here to tell me why it won’t work, I’m not interested in having that conversation. And you walk away. And there have been plenty of people that have come to my clinics and gone back to their home barn and used this script. And half of the people are so intrigued by what they’re doing.

[SPEAKER 1]
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They’re like, yeah, I am curious.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Why does this work? And my client explains and they’re like, wow. And then they try it. And then they start to kind of like the little ripple effect goes where they’re like, wow, I can see immediate results in my horse. This must actually be working. And then there’s the other 50% that are like, well, it’s not going to work.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:46-00:29:47]
And it’s fine.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:47-00:30:28]
They don’t have to believe that it’s going to work. And they don’t have to believe that what you’re doing is quote unquote, right. Just like you don’t have to believe what they’re doing is right. And so really giving yourself permission to stand up, In your own power and do what’s right for you and your horse and eliminate the need to do what, you know, quote unquote, everyone else is doing. Because everyone’s doing, for the most part, I would say 98% of equestrians are doing what they think is best. I don’t think there’s very many horse people that are setting out to do it. like in very intentional harm to their horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:28-00:30:28]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:28-00:30:56]
I think we’re all doing what we know when we know it. And so it’s not going to be easy if you can’t remove yourself from it, but if it’s not an option to remove yourself from it or to like move to a barn where maybe it’s a little bit less competitive, I think you just have to say no. I believe in what I’m doing and I, I honor my horse, my horse and eyes connection more than the opinion of those people around me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:56-00:33:46]
Yeah. The, the other thing is interesting. The, um, Boarding Barn that I was at before I’d moved my horses home was quite a large facility. And we had a wide variety of, you know, riders. So you had some that were very competitive. You had some that, like… Their horses were as much as my house. And then you had some that never rode. They just had them as a pet. You had some that would just get on and go along through a trail every so often. There was a very wide variety of people that were at the barn, which was lovely. And When I started to kind of make a bit of a transition in my horsemanship, then I went into it thinking, everybody’s judging me, everybody’s looking at me, everybody has these expectations of me, you know, all of the things that go through my head. And then as I went along, I was like, wait, no one actually cares what I’m doing. Like, no one thinks about me as much as I think about me, you know? And so it was almost a permission for me to be like, hey, I think… I’m putting a little bit more attention on this than anybody else is. Like at the end of the day, I remember it like when I was in going back to high school and you’d be walking up the cafeteria and you’re like, Oh my gosh, everybody’s looking at me. Like I don’t trip. Is my shirt, you know, like what, like, like you’re all these thoughts running through your head of like, Oh my God, don’t make a fool of yourself. Everybody’s looking and no one is looking. It’s those things where we, we kind of, we just put a little bit more in the most loving way possible. We put a little bit more self-importance on ourselves than I think is, is the reality. So I tried to keep that in mind also is that at the end of the day, I am not doing anything wrong with my horses to the extent of like, I’m not beating my horses. I’m not, I’m not doing anything dangerous. I’m not putting myself in harm’s way. I’m not putting other people in harm’s way. Like there’s nothing that would make anybody be, um, questioning the safety. Um, yeah. And so in that sense, um, Does anybody actually care? The answer is probably no. They’re probably focused on what they’re doing and they’re probably worried about me watching what they’re doing as much as I’m worried about what they’re watching me doing. You know, so it’s those things we kind of get in our head a little bit. So, yeah, just trying to keep that in mind also is that nobody cares about what you’re doing as much as you do. Oh, my gosh.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:33:46-00:33:48]
I love that so much. I’d never thought about that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:33:49-00:33:52]
But I think about it. I always have to be like, no, you’re not that important.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:33:54-00:34:40]
And what I’m thinking about now, too, is like I would if I was at a barn. I would rather be. And I was like I was traveling to barns and doing what I’m doing now at very competitive barns for like one or two clients at each barn. And I remember people like stopping and watching me. And the consensus was that I do nothing. And so what I’m thinking about now is like, I would rather be known as the trainer that does nothing or like the horse person that does quote unquote nothing with their horse. Then the one who’s like, Oh my God, she like ran that horse into the ground. Like, yeah, she’s, you know, she’s too hard. She’s too rough. Like I’d rather people be like, well, she doesn’t really do anything.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:41-00:34:43]
Right. Um, because I,

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:44-00:34:46]
that’s also not really causing harm, like you said.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:46-00:34:47]
So I love that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:47-00:34:54]
Thank you for sharing that. I’m going to remind myself of this when I’m… That took me years.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:55-00:35:07]
That took me years of inner work. So one of the things, too, is talking a lot about being able to acknowledge what your horse needs at this moment. So, okay, my horse needs rest.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:07-00:35:07]
My horse needs…

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:08-00:35:54]
It needs to go back with their buddies. It needs a feeling of state, like all of the things to be able to acknowledge what your horse needs at this moment. And so it’s one thing to work with horses and to be training horses. And it’s another thing to work with humans and all the complexities of the human mind. And so when you are working… whether it’s a lesson or a clinic setting, how do you approach teaching people like how they can learn or how they are able to learn to listen, understand, acknowledge, feel, you know, all of the things as to what their horse needs at the moment so that they’re able to just kind of sort of honor that. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:54-00:35:55]
Great question.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:57-00:35:57]
So I,

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:35:58-00:36:25]
the first thing I teach people is just to like, look at your horse, like before you catch them, before you’re near, like, just look at them. And I walk people through all the little tiny, subtle things that we, I was, I mean, I was never taught. I’m hoping that this new wave of, of young equestrians are, are learning this as more of like the horse welfare comes into the

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:36:26-00:36:27]
like more mainstream picture.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:36:29-00:39:51]
But I just have people like, look at their horse. And I point out like, see this eyeball, like see the muscle under the eyes twitching. Like that means something. You see all the quivering and like the little micro like vibrations in like the skin around his nose. That means something. And we go through all of this to kind of like demystify what the horse is thinking because horses don’t hide emotion. very easily at a baseline level. Now, if you’re getting into like traumatized horses, abused horses, unhandled horses, then we can get a little bit more, it gets a little bit more advanced. But on a baseline level, your horse will typically tell you pretty openly how they’re feeling as long as you’re not putting any pressure on them to begin with. So I go through some of like the most basic equine behavior signals. And I have people watch horses interact to be like, okay, see how this horse does that. And then that horse does that. And so we start there. And then I would say the most transformational exercise I have people do is I put them, I put a horse in a round pen. I put them in the round pen at the opposite edge of the round pen as the horse. And I tell them to close their eyes and start walking. And as soon as they feel anything, I tell them to stop. And what they’re learning, because most people, when they walk into a room where some like bad stuff has just gone down, they can feel it. And people will feel it in different places in their body, like gut, chest, throat are usually the three main things. And so we all have the ability to feel emotion. We’re just raised in a society where we’re taught to disconnect from the body and live in the brain. And so the beginning of my work is bringing people back into their body so that they can access all of the tools that allow them to feel and to communicate and to know what their horse is thinking, feeling, needing, because everyone can do it. It’s not some like magical power where only some people can like intuitively communicate. Everyone can do it. It’s just about learning how to get back in touch with your body and be in the present moment where your horse lives. And so that’s where I start. It’s not even a like, okay, these are the four things you do first. It’s whatever is going to work for each individual to get into their body. And then you can start feeling what you should do. It’s the same thing as like if you’re driving home from work and you usually go, there’s two ways to get home, let’s say, and you usually go left. But for some reason that day, something’s like, go right. And you go right. And then you get home and you find out there was a giant accident. If you would have gone left, you know, it’s those intuitive. You know, messages that can very clearly and help you. I don’t know if that’s a word, guide our lives and existence. If we get back to a place of mindfulness as a baseline so that we can receive the information that we need to be effective and kind and good to our horses.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:52-00:40:08]
I love that. I love the idea of the. like the walking with your eyes closed until you feel something. And now when you say, so you’re walking and then you feel something and then you stop, is it you stop and you look at your horse or do you just stop for a second until the feeling goes away?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:10-00:41:38]
So, so the first, you know, there’s a lot of levels of this exercise and there’s a lot you can do with it. The primary thing, The first time we do it, it’s just to start feeling where your horse’s energetic field starts. Because people don’t realize how big these horses’ fields are and how quickly we obliterate through them to get to their body. It’s like you see a horse and the first thing you do is reach and touch them. No one does that to a dog. Because they’re afraid the dog’s going to bite them if they just reach and touch the dog. We have this innate respect of the dog where we’re like, here, you want to sniff my hand first? But people see a horse and walk right up to them and start patting them on the neck. And over time, that horse learns my boundaries are not respected. And so they either shut down and turn off the nerve endings and turn off the outer layers of their body that have helped them, you know, connect and interact with the world for years, or they get louder and they pin their ears and they switch their tail and they walk away and they do all of these things. And people don’t realize why that’s happening. And so I want to show you like, look, if you just acknowledge that your horse exists, most horses after they’ve learned that you acknowledge this will be like, oh, hey, it’s so nice to see you. How are you doing today?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:39-00:41:39]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:39-00:41:48]
Because suddenly you are respecting that. The most basic but most important thing about your horse, which is that they exist.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:49-00:41:49]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:50-00:41:51]
In space around you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:52-00:41:52]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:52-00:42:08]
You’re you’re the one who chose to bring the horse, domesticate the horse, put the horse in a world that makes no sense to them. The least you can do is to acknowledge that that one is hard for them and to that they exist in space.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:42:08-00:43:18]
Yeah. Yeah, I love that so much. My gelding’s really interesting that way. If he’s just hanging out, doing whatever, and I just beeline straight for him and like bulldoze through anything, then he’ll be like, nope, and just walk away. But if I walk up to him and like just kind of like look for that energetic connection and like when I feel it, And I just kind of pause to say, Hey, um, then he’ll, it’s, it’s almost as if he says, cool, thanks. I’ll come to you. And then he like turns him off. It’s literally the coolest thing because you might think, okay, what am I doing? What’s the point of this? I just need to put the halter on them to get them inside. So why can’t I just walk? Like it’s all of those things that go through your head again, how you were conditioned generally from, you know, taking riding lessons. Um, And it’s actually really, really cool when you, you know, essentially respect boundaries, but also just like connecting energetically. It’s, it’s really interesting how they actually resonate with that. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:18-00:43:48]
And it’s not this like super lot, like people hear me and they’re like, Oh my gosh, that’s going to take so long. I’m like, it actually doesn’t right now. It takes a long time because you’re learning how to feel it, but it, It’s not this, it’s not going to change your experience of haltering your, like catching your horse in a field and haltering them from 30 seconds to eight minutes. It’s going to change it from 30 seconds to 40 seconds. And maybe it’ll decrease the time if you have a hard to catch horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:49-00:43:50]
Right. Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:50-00:43:55]
Instead of chasing them around the pasture for 40 minutes, they’ll just come up to you when they see you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:43:55-00:43:55]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:56-00:44:01]
So I’m kind of more about like put extra time in in the beginning so that you do less later.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:01-00:44:33]
Yeah, I love that. And so you have a couple of different training programs. Like I know that you do some Liberty training and can you, can you walk us through some of the different programs? If somebody, like if somebody wanted to take a lesson with you, would they select something in particular that they wanted to work on or would it just be kind of a, a general lesson? And then you kind of can specialize from there as you go. And then same with your clinics. How are those sort of broken down? All of the things. Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:34-00:44:48]
So the only lessons I don’t offer a bunch of lessons for like people who don’t have much experience just because I don’t have many horses that are willing to do that type of work.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:48-00:44:52]
So is it only you do lessons with people that have their own horses? Yes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:44:54-00:45:57]
For the most part, yeah. I have a handful of clients at any time that don’t have horses that will, like, come and partner with one of mine and learn some basic things. But I don’t offer, like, riding lessons for anyone that don’t have their own horse. And the majority of my work is I train the horse and bring the human into that – like, that horse’s human into the equation when that horse is ready to – Have them be a part of it. So depending, that could be right off, that could be after a week, that could be after four months, depending on what that horse came to me to be. So the majority of my work at this point is restarting horses who have been, you know, poorly trained, abused, you know, obliterated by other people. I don’t know a nicer way to say that. So that’s the majority of my work. That’s kind of what I’m known for is okay. This horse is quote unquote flunked out of five other training programs, but human doesn’t want to give up on horse. So horse comes here.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:57-00:45:57]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:58-00:46:11]
And we figure out why, you know, why this is happening. We teach the horse to communicate. We teach the horse they can say no and we move forward. So that’s my new beginning. I call it the new beginning program. That’s the majority of of what I do.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:11-00:46:12]
And then I have.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:13-00:46:24]
a pretty good number at any time or like young horses that are kind of like coming up through the harmonized horsemanship program. So I get to handle them from beginning to end, which is amazing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:26-00:46:27]
And then I have,

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:28-00:47:11]
a good number of clients that like their horse has, you know, quote unquote graduated my program, but they don’t want to leave. So they come and they do like weekly lessons on a variety of different things. So we’ll do Liberty some weeks, we’ll do like riding some weeks, we’ll do, you know, the energetic and intuitive communication lessons some weeks. So it just kind of depends on the needs of each horse. But all of the programs, regardless if, We’re starting under saddle, restarting under saddle, solving a behavioral problem like bolting, biting, whatever. We always start at the very beginning and figure out what there’s always a root cause of the behavior. No horse wakes up in the morning and is like, I’m going to be terrible today.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:12-00:47:12]
Right. Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:13-00:47:21]
They’re not out to get us. This whole myth of like, if you don’t do X, your horse will kill you. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but like horses aren’t out in the pasture, like killing each other.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:22-00:47:22]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:22-00:47:23]
It’s not in their nature.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:24-00:47:24]
Yes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:24-00:47:32]
To like one, you know, it’s not like dog fights, like dogs will fight to the death. Horses very, very rarely ever do that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:32-00:47:33]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:34-00:49:28]
And if it does end up that way in the wild, it’s usually accidental. It’s not like, oh, I got him. And so just really getting to the root of why it’s happening and then healing whatever trauma that was through some liberty work, through energy work, through intuitive communication with them to really be like, okay, I get that that’s all happened. Now that doesn’t happen anymore. Now you get a chance to have a say in what you’re doing. And that typically is the game changer, you know, for every horse and human relationship that I have come to me. The horse is always the first one to be ready to move on. They’re always the first one to let go of what’s happened in the past. The hardest part is getting the human to to be ready to move forward and getting the human to let go of what’s happened in the past. Because the human has learned through all their experiences with their horse, who their horse quote unquote is. And so everything that horse does, they see through the lens of, well, my horse is aggressive. My horse is spooky. My horse is this, my, you know, and so my job as like the translator between the two or the therapist is to say, I get that. Like he was that way. And this is why he was doing that. But what’s happening right now? And that’s why so much of my work is getting people back into their bodies so that they can feel what’s happening right now. And they can learn to look at the horse and be like, oh, I thought he was freaking out. He’s really just looking at that trash can. Because it’s a trash can. That’s a weird thing to look at. But if they have these goggles on, let’s say my horse is a bolter and the horse looks at something immediately. They’re like, he’s bolting.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:28-00:49:28]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:30-00:49:39]
And so it’s getting people to realize horses change way faster than we do.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:39-00:49:41]
Um, we love our stories. So,

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:42-00:50:04]
Yeah, we sure do. And there I’ve met plenty of horses in my work now that can get as equally attached to stories and things that have happened to them just because the muscle memory and the neurons and the cells and everything are like storing all of this trauma. But once you get them to let that go, they’re typically pretty ready to just move on with life.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:04-00:50:04]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:06-00:50:07]
I don’t even know if I answered your question.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:07-00:51:16]
I derailed. No, that’s okay. You actually, the, the next question I was going to ask, you kind of answered it there is like, what’s the most common issue that you witness? Like, where do you think people are going wrong with their horses? Basically, what is a common issue that you witness and then how can, or what can owners do to avoid it? Yeah. You know, you kind of answered it there too, but I mean, it definitely go on, but I also loved, I just want to, um, just highlight what you had said there in terms of that is, is saying that, you know, we, we kind of hold ourselves and our horses back a little bit where, when, yeah, something might’ve happened in the past and we can acknowledge that and we can respect that. Um, And, you know, when it’s time to move on and the horse is ready to move on, the human needs to acknowledge that that was in the past and be willing to move on as well. And so I think that was something really important that you highlighted, you know, for a common issue. And then what to do to avoid it is it’s like be willing to move on. And so if there’s anything else I’d also love to hear, but I just wanted to highlight that really important point.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:51:17-00:52:58]
Yeah, and a lot of, like, the most common question I get from people when I say, like, it’s time now. Like, you have to move on. He’s ready for you to step forward with him. You’re standing, like, back in the shadow, like, holding his tail. A horse showed me this picture once. Like, we kept kind of coming up against the same thing. wall in like every lesson the horse would be beautiful with me and then the human would come and it was like it’d be fine and then all of a sudden it’d be like bam bam bam the same wall and so I remember I was just I got really quiet in the middle of the session and I was like okay dude like what is up and he it was the funniest thing he showed me this picture of his body and like the front half of his body was like in this beautiful like glistening sunlight and then he showed me the back end of him was like all shadow and darkness and like chaos and he showed his human like holding on to his tail like this cartoon image of like this human holding him back he’s trying to like step forward into the light and the humans like holding on to him like oh my gosh and it was like he showed like he was a cartoon like it was all really cartoony but I was like oh my god and so I stopped and I like looked at my client I’m like you’re not going to believe this but like this is what’s happening and she goes well how do I do that and so my all of my like weekend clinics and my workshops the first exercise I have everyone do within like 10 minutes of getting there it’s a great way to start the weekend like give them a notebook and I say okay go sit down

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:60-00:53:02]
And you’re going to write a letter to your horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:02-00:53:53]
Like, you know, the letters you used to write to like ex-boyfriends and like friends that wrong do and like parents where you just like stream of consciousness, you get everything out that’s holding you back that you’re upset about. And I have people write stream of consciousness letters to their horse, dear horse, like, and a lot of times it comes out in those letters that they’re mad at them for throwing them off and that they are afraid of it, but it gets them mad. out of the story of like all the things that might happen. And it gets them really connected to what has actually happened. And it gives you a chance as a human to like air it all out. And then that’s what I tell people is like, this is your last chance. This is your chance to get all of this out on the table. And then you owe it to yourself and this horse to let all of that go and move forward.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:53-00:53:53]
But this,

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:54-00:54:02]
the cathartic experience of writing a letter and sometimes like read, read it out loud to a friend, send it to a trainer.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:02-00:54:02]
I don’t care.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:02-00:54:29]
Read it to your horse. A lot of people do that. Um, as silly as it sounds, that is the exercise that I’ve gotten feedback from the most people that come to my clinics as like the thing that changed everything. So if you’re looking for something to do, like for those of you who are listening, if you’re having a, like one thing with your horse that you can’t seem to let go, like just sit down and write it out.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:29-00:54:30]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:30-00:54:37]
There is something very healing about letting every thought come out of your mind and put it on paper or type it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:37-00:54:37]
I don’t care.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:38-00:54:49]
Um, without any fear of like someone judging you for hearing it, your horse isn’t going to judge you for hearing it. Uh, and it just kind of like gives you a blank slate to step forward from.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:49-00:54:52]
Hmm. I love that. And, and, Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:54:52-00:55:45]
And that I think is like to answer the what is the thing that I see like missing the most is mindfulness. And it comes like that’s what everything comes down to. Boundary issues with horses that like nip or pull it pockets. The reason they do that is at one point your horse is reaching for your your coat. And you were talking to your friend at the barn and you took a cookie out of your pocket and gave it to your horse. And so now your horse thinks when he pushes you, he gets a cookie, right? Or, you know, it’s like all of these quote unquote problems that horses have are almost always created by a human. And they’re almost always created from a lack of mindfulness and presence and presence in what we’re doing with our horse at any given moment.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:47-00:56:37]
Yeah, I love all of that. I’m just sitting here nodding my head. I think that’s awesome. I… Yeah, I have a couple scenarios that I’d love to kind of throw in there. So there’s just two of them. The first one was if someone was feeling lost with their horse. So let’s say like the relationship’s fine. It’s not, they’re not fucking them off. They’re not running away from them in the field. Like it’s a fine relationship, right? But there’s not really any joy. So let’s say everything’s kind of feeling a little mundane or routine or like the horse is just kind of feeling like, oh, hey, like when they show up to the barn to get them, everything just feels routine. What would you suggest? Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:37-00:56:43]
So my first question would be, why are you doing what you’re doing?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:45-00:56:46]
Good one. Is it like…

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:48-00:57:23]
Because routine for horses is nice. They like routines. Us as humans also like routines. So if you’re in this routine where things are going quote unquote fine, why doesn’t that feel good? And typically it’s because people are doing what they’re doing because someone else told them this is what you should be doing. Or they’re doing what they’re doing because… you have a horse and so you’re supposed to ride it, right? It’s this whole preconceived notion of like horses are meant to be ridden. And so if you’re not riding them, what are you doing?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:23-00:57:30]
They’re supposed to have a job. The amount of times I see horses for sale that are like, needs a job. I’m like, do they? Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:31-00:57:57]
That is the most human construct. Like no horse needs a job. As long as your horse’s needs are met and they’re out living with friends with food 24 seven and water and food, They don’t need a job. So my first question would be, why are you doing what you’re doing? And why doesn’t it feel joyful? And a lot of times it’s because human has decided I have to ride my horse five days a week.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:58-00:57:58]
And that’s a lot.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:59-00:58:21]
And so it becomes, well, I have to go and do this because X, Y, Z, which immediately makes it feel like a chore, which immediately will take the joy out of it. So get really real with why you’re doing what you’re doing. And then ask yourself, are you projecting how you feel about it onto your horse?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:58:22-00:58:22]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:58:22-00:58:30]
Like, and this is why I teach people to like really read the horse. Like, is your horse really just fine with it or is he pretty content and happy? And you’re the one that’s just fine with it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:58:30-00:58:39]
Right. It’s like, is your horse like actually like feeling that way or does he just have a regulated nervous system? And it’s like, right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:58:39-00:58:52]
Um, you know, and the other thing is, Does it feel, so for me, what was happening is everything was fine. Like I showed up, my horse was happy to see me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:58:52-00:58:53]
I rode him.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:58:53-00:58:54]
I did what I was told to do.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:58:55-00:58:55]
I went home.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:58:56-00:59:60]
There weren’t any, you know, quote unquote problems, but it didn’t feel good to me because I didn’t feel good about what I was doing on some level. at that time, subconscious level, I knew there was more to my relationship with my horse than what I was getting. And so it did leave me feeling, eh, I don’t know about this. And so it’s really getting to the bottom of what do you want from your relationship with your horse? Make that list first and write that puppy down. Like what do you, in an ideal world, what do you want from your relationship with your horse? And then you write down a separate list of what do you want from your, like, I don’t know, not job with your horse, but like the things you do with your horse. What do you want? And you get really clear on what you want from those two things. Most of the time, the list that people have of what they want from their relationship is like 20 things long. And what they want to do is two or three.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:00:01-01:00:01]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:00:01-01:01:05]
And it’s this really eye-opening thing of like, wow, I value relationship over doing, which, spoiler alert, so does your horse. Horses don’t care what you do. Horses want you to be. And so finding what you want and why you’re doing what you’re doing will typically help get you through that, like, first initial hump of like, well, I mean, everything’s fine, but like, what am I doing? And then you can start to explore, you know, how can these things that I want from my relationship, how can I obtain those things? And that’s where we’re so lucky. And I’m so happy that the like, industry is going the way it is where people are emphasizing more. on relationship like equine welfare, the happiness of your horse. There’s a lot of resources nowadays where you can find things to do, which will satisfy the part of you that wants to do things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:06-01:01:06]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:01:07-01:01:15]
Um, that will foster and nourish and help develop the relationship so that you both feel way more than fine.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:16-01:02:39]
Hmm. I love that. I agree that I’m very happy to see so many things coming out saying like, if you’re not riding your horse, here’s some other things you can be doing. Because I think that it is, you know, so much of the industry, whether in the past or and I mean, even currently, like there’s still there’s still a huge change that does need to be made. But it is changing. And And I think that before we kind of thought it was all or nothing. They had their quote unquote job and then they were retired. And then when they were retired, they didn’t do anything. And it’s like, there’s no sort of in between. You can’t have the… the horse that isn’t being ridden, but still, you know, you still kind of do some different things with, um, whether it’s groundwork or whatever. And so I, I think it’s, it’s really cool that we are seeing, like you said, some resources and stuff coming out to give people ideas and, and, and things like that. Um, The next one, the next scenario is, let’s say someone is struggling with their horse. So let’s say there’s no sense of trust between them. There’s no, maybe not a feeling of a boundary or whatever it may be. I mean, I’m sure I can go in so many different directions with this. Let’s just say someone is struggling. What would you suggest?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:02:41-01:03:10]
So if you’re struggling because you have a fear or distrust of your horse, you have to get help from someone else. Which might, depending on what you feel is acceptable treatment, might be a harder search than getting for other people who might not have such high standards. If you have high standards, don’t lower them just to get assistance.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:11-01:03:16]
Good advice. Honestly, good advice. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:16-01:03:23]
You know, if, if that means your horse does nothing for a little bit while you figure out what to do, it’s okay. Again, as long as their needs are being met.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:23-01:03:24]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:25-01:03:52]
But if you are afraid of your horse, you can’t help them. The reason is, is that, You have to be in control of your emotions and yourself in order to help and aid the relationship and the progress of your horse. You cannot help them if you’re not in control of your own emotions. And if you are in a fearful place, you’re not in control of your emotions. It’s not a bad thing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:52-01:03:52]
It’s okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:53-01:04:02]
It’s healthy to be afraid of a 1200 pound animal. I would much rather have someone come to me and be like, wow, I’m afraid of my horse than come to me and be like, yeah, I’m not afraid when I know they are.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:02-01:04:03]
Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:04-01:04:30]
You know, giving yourself permission to be afraid and get help is a great place to start. And depending on what the problem is, it might be something as simple as a virtual lesson with a trainer that you do trust that might not be close to you, but can, you know, look and be like, wow, I see why that’s causing you some fear, but actually your horse is just trying to say this, you know?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:30-01:04:31]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:32-01:06:05]
And getting you to a place where you have more understanding of what’s happening. That’s kind of what I see most is people who are struggling with their horses. It’s because there’s some miscommunication where the horse is doing something and the human just doesn’t understand it. Or they’re trying to put human emotion, you know, human logic, et cetera, onto something. the mind and nervous system of a prey animal, which just doesn’t work. And so giving yourself permission to get help and giving yourself permission to do nothing. And what I mean by do nothing is sit near your horse. If you are comfortable doing that in the same pen as them, great. If you want to be on the other side of the fence from them, great, but sit there and really do nothing. Like just share space with them and spend time with them to really demonstrate that your presence does not always mean we’re going to do something. Because if you’ve been struggling, it’s likely that most of the training sessions recently have been unpleasant and have ended in a way that neither of you feel good about. And so the first thing to do is to get back to at least a neutral state. playing field, I use this analogy about your bank balance or a checking account balance. You always need the account balance with your horse to be in the positive, which means every time you work with them, you need to deposit something.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:07-01:06:07]
When

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:08-01:06:15]
You’re struggling. You’re doing a lot of withdrawals to where you might get to a zero balance. You might even get to a negative balance.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:15-01:06:16]
Don’t go to overdraft.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:16-01:06:17]
The more you withdraw.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:18-01:06:20]
Exactly.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:20-01:06:31]
The more you overdraft, the harder it is to get out. Because when you’re overdrafting, you get hit with those pesky overdraft fees, which now you have to pay with the money that you don’t have, which is why you overdrafted in the first place.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:31-01:06:35]
And so stop overdrafting. spending money.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:37-01:07:03]
Stop withdrawing things from the relationship with the horse and focus on depositing, which the best way to deposit good feelings, good energy, good intention with a horse who you’ve been struggling with is to really do nothing and to sit and to be, don’t shower them with cookies. Don’t feed them a bunch, right? That’ll get you some ground, but it won’t mean anything.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:03-01:07:08]
Yeah. Yeah. You’ll just, it’ll just be a cookie monster. Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:09-01:08:06]
So really never underestimate the power of doing nothing with a horse because nothing to a horse is typically everything. And it, it changes their nervous system from bracing when they see you to softening when they see you. which can most times start to soften whatever the behavioral problems are because they’re not bracing the second they see you. So if you can’t get help immediately, then give yourself permission for a little while while you’re finding a good resource to just do nothing and to sit and be near them. You know, we think about horses create bonds through like sharing space and Like most animals do our dogs. We bond with very quickly because we spend at least eight hours a day with them. Even if we’re just sleeping, we’re sharing space with them.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:06-01:08:07]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:07-01:08:36]
We can’t do that so easily with a horse. And so we have to put so much more emphasis on like quality over the quantity of time. And so really sit down, like turn on a meditation app and sit down and like breathe next to your horse for 10 minutes. And that to your horse will mean more than if you pull them out and like ride them for 30 minutes or you pull them out and like try to, you know, quote unquote, join up with them in a round pen.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:37-01:08:37]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:37-01:08:43]
None of that is meaningful to the horse, especially if you both feel bad about it when you’re done.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:43-01:09:18]
Yeah. Yeah. I want to use this kind of this like bank account analogy and pivot over into another analogy that you have. And it’s on your blog. And I just I read it and I absolutely loved it. And it was how many times did you carry groceries for a stranger? And I’m wondering, now you had written it like three years ago. So I apologize if you’re like, okay, now I got to like remember what that even is. But if you could, could you just kind of briefly explain that for our listeners? Because I just, it was so cool. Yep.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:19-01:09:26]
Yeah, it’s one of my favorite analogies. So, all right, briefly, here we go.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:09:26-01:09:26]
I can do this.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:29-01:09:58]
So the analogy is, okay, you’re walking to the grocery store or into the grocery store, and there’s a stranger standing out front with, you know, two armfuls of groceries. And they say, hey, can you help me carry these to my car? You know, you’re probably going to say yes, because you’re a nice person. You’re going to take the bags. You’re going to go to the car, put them in the person’s car. Now, if that person says nothing to you and drives off, you’re going to feel one way. If that person showers you with gratitude, oh, my gosh, thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:09:58-01:09:59]
I appreciate it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:59-01:11:30]
This was amazing. You helped me so much. I couldn’t carry the groceries because blank. And then they drive off. You’re going to feel one way. If that person, like, smiles, nods, like you can tell it’s a pretty forced thank you and drives off, you’re going to feel another way. And the idea of this is let’s say that happened three days in a row. So you show up. Because apparently you keep forgetting things on your list. So you have to go to the grocery store three days in a row. And so does this other person. And each time you get there, they’re standing in front of you with these groceries and you know what they’re going to ask you. Depending on how they responded to your initial request is going to determine whether you, you know, like hide from them when you start shopping. to see them, you know, you look really busy, you pick up your phone, you like turn your head, avoid eye contact. If you’re going to be willing to help them again, or if you’re going to stop shopping at that grocery store. So the, if we think of that from a horse’s perspective and you’re the stranger who shows up and says, Hey horse, do this. And the horse does it. And you pat him on the neck twice and leave. Or they do it and you’re like, oh, my gosh, that was amazing. And you put them back and you leave or they do it. And then you’re like, OK, well, now do this. OK, well, now do this. OK, well, now do this. Your horse is going to start. Feeling a certain type of way when they see you approaching.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:11:30-01:11:35]
Yeah. The flip side of this is.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:11:35-01:11:42]
Let’s say you show up at the grocery store and your best friend in the entire world is standing out front and they’re like, oh my God, please, can you carry these groceries?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:11:43-01:11:44]
They’re going to be like, heck yeah, girl, I got you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:11:44-01:12:23]
And you’re going to take the groceries to their car. And if your friend says nothing to you or gives you like a really curt, oh, thank you, and drives off, the first thing you’re going to do is to think, wow, she must be having like a really hard day. I’m going to check in on her later and make sure she’s okay. If she showers you with thank you, thank you, you’re amazing, you’re going to be like, heck yeah, I am, and you’re amazing, and we can do anything, and I’ll help you anytime. Because you have this basis of friendship, relationship, trust, et cetera, where your friend can be kind of rude, and you’re not going to think, gosh, I’m never helping her again.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:12:23-01:12:24]
What a hag. That was terrible.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:12:24-01:12:57]
And so if you’re your horse’s friend first… and you put the time into developing the relationship and you ask your horse to carry your groceries because they’re your horse, they’re going to say yes. And whether you’re in the best place that day to reward them, to thank them, et cetera, they’re going to feel pretty good about helping you because it feels good to do something that you need them to do. Just like it felt good to you to do something that your friend needed you to do.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:12:58-01:13:02]
Hmm. I love that so much. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:13:02-01:13:05]
And, and explaining it briefly was hard.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:13:05-01:13:32]
So go, if anybody wants the longer version, um, go to, we’ll put all the links in the show notes. Um, but go to, I’ll even link the direct like blog link, um, as well as, as your overall website. Um, but yeah, people can go and read like the full version of it. Um, it’s worth the week, the read it’s, um, it was really good. And you explained it really well also. If nobody goes and reads it, you still explained it well. Okay, great.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:13:33-01:15:24]
So, yeah, it’s why I put so much emphasis on the relationship and the partnership and the friendship with the horse. Because what I found was if I’m my horse’s friend, I can do anything. And we can do anything because we have this foundation of friendship. respect and trust and like legitimate love for each other and respect. That’s not rooted in fear or repercussions or punishment. It’s respect of like, I see you and you see me and you’re safe to be however you are on any given day. And I’ll meet you there. And in the beginning, we have to be the ones that, that always show up and meet the horse where they’re at. Because we have to show them, especially if they’ve been traditionally trained, that it’s no longer you do what I say, it’s let’s create something together. So we have to be the ones initially that show up time after time again and meet the horse where they’re at. If you do this long enough, the most beautiful thing happens and it’s you can show up and be not in the best place, or be having a bad day, and your horse is like, oh, I’ve got you. It’s no problem. And this is what happened with Eli, my first horse, towards the end. of his life is like all the years he had punished me for showing up and not being, you know, authentic. And it got to where like that horse, I could be having the worst anxiety of my life. And my mayor, when I’m anxious, she’s like, girl, I got you, but I’m going to have you from over here because I cannot be near you right now.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:15:24-01:15:24]
Um,

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:15:25-01:15:60]
And Eli would be like, wow, you’re like he could feel I was anxious before I even like got out of the car when I got home and he’d be at the fence like, OK, like, let’s work this out. But it’s because I put so much time into like you show up how you are. I’ll show up how I am and we’ll figure it out. And then your horse starts picking up some slack and helping you on days where you can’t be the one that’s like fully present or fully put together. but it has to start. We have to be the ones that, that create that precedent in the relationship.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:16:01-01:16:35]
I, I just, I love that so much. And I think that’s a, such a good way to wrap up our podcast too, is, um, like that just kind of summarizes so much of what we’ve discussed today. And, um, The last things that we have is four rapid fire questions. So it’s just a quick question. And so the first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying? Ride the wave. Oh, I like that. The second one, who has been the most, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, no, it’s fine.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:16:35-01:16:36]
We’re rapid firing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:16:37-01:16:43]
Okay. The second one is who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:16:44-01:16:45]
Frederic Pignon.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:16:47-01:16:51]
Okay, I’m going to get you to go in depth there. I don’t recognize that name. Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:16:51-01:16:53]
So he was the original creator of Cavalia.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:16:54-01:16:55]
Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:16:55-01:18:18]
So back in the day before Cavalia got Like now it’s a little bit more like clicker when it towards the end, it was more like clicker training based. But he created the concept with his wife in the very beginning. And he started touring the world with like his herd of horses. And so I’ve studied with him twice here in the U.S. and twice with him. at his like home base in France. Um, but he, he was like the missing piece that connected all the dots together for me. I’d worked with positive reinforcement trainers and I was doing some clicker training, but that didn’t feel very good to me. And then I’d studied with some like very more like circus trainer, Liberty trainers, and that didn’t feel good. And I was trying to figure out how to like tie, um, all of this together. Um, and I had my mare at the time and I didn’t know what to do with her. Cause she wouldn’t do anything if I didn’t have the cookie bag on, but I didn’t want to beat her and like be like rough. Like I had been taught how to make it. And so I took her to his clinic in, in Littleton, Colorado, the first time he had come here. And I put her in the round table. He’s like, well, just show me what you do. And I was like, well, we don’t really do anything unless I have cookies. And he’s like, not about the cookies. So I didn’t take the cookies in there. And I was just like walking around with her and she was following me. And I was so embarrassed because I was like, God, we’re not doing anything.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:18:18-01:18:26]
And he looks at me and he goes, this is good. And I’m like, what? And he goes, this is really good. She likes you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:18:27-01:19:28]
She’s your friend. And so now we can do whatever you want. And it was the first time in my life someone had looked at me and said, your horse likes you. And that, to me, is more valuable than anything that you do. And to watch him work as much as I’ve watched him work, every horse he’s with is his friend. And every horse he’s with values him more than anything in the world. And there’s never… ego there’s never I have to get you know xyz done it’s just this I am I am me and you are you and let’s create something together and he is by far the most the most influential being to me and how I am with horses now because he gave me permission to be the way I wanted to be I love that the third question if you could give equestrians one piece of advice what would it be remember that horses are supposed to be fun.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:19:29-01:19:42]
That’s good. And the fourth one, please complete the sentence for me. Horses are everything. Yeah. Awesome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:19:43-01:19:44]
It’s just where the common answer.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:19:45-01:20:01]
No, but you know what? It like, it summarizes it, right? That’s like, how do I go into detail? It’s like, they’re literally everything. Where can people find you and how can they connect with you? And we’ll put the links in the show notes. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:20:01-01:20:36]
So harmonized horsemanship.com is my website and then harmonized horsemanship on Facebook and Instagram. Those are, those are my most used platforms. And then if you are local to Colorado, I, I do clinics pretty much all spring, summer and fall here in Colorado. And then next year, I’m going to start trying to find some barns throughout the U.S. that might want to host a clinic. So if that’s you, you can get in touch with me on my website and I would be happy to come and do a weekend.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:20:37-01:20:44]
Awesome. And then you also have online as well. Is that correct? Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:20:44-01:21:46]
So I do have an online program. It’s just a video library. So there’s like 150 videos on there right now. And I kind of pretty consistently keep adding more. So there’s everything from like starting a horse at Liberty, respectful, my respectful horsemanship series. I have a lot of like problem solving stuff on there for behavioral problems. I just completed the first half of this really cool course. series with a really anxious horse that came to me um he’s been anxious his whole life and and we got him not anxious anymore and he’s feeling really good so he’s taking a little break and he’ll be back next year to to start his under saddle work but there’s a lot of stuff on there and they’re all like uncut unedited videos so you really get to see like Sometimes things go as planned and then sometimes things don’t go as planned. But I don’t edit out when things aren’t going as planned. I just change what the topic of the video is. It’s like, oh, actually, we’re not working on riding prep. We’re working on relaxation work today because this horse is not prepared to be ridden right now.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:21:46-01:21:47]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:21:47-01:21:59]
So it’s nice to be able to see like how it all unfolds from start to finish versus, you know, some of them are a little bit more edited and so you don’t know like, okay, but how’d you get from point A to point B?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:21:60-01:22:04]
Right. Or, or what do you do if this comes up? Exactly. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:22:04-01:22:17]
So they’re, they’re really, they’re, they’re super raw and unedited and uncut and you can see everything. Um, and I have a monthly subscription model for that, or you can do like a one-time payment and have access forever.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:22:18-01:23:22]
Awesome. OK, we’ll put links to everything in the show notes, including your social media handles so people can follow you and learn more about you and stay connected and all the things. And I’m just I’m so grateful that you agreed to this interview. I think it was very insightful. I think that our audience is going to really enjoy it. And I certainly enjoyed it myself. So thank you. Oh, I loved it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.