#45 Change in our Horses starts with Change in Us with Ian Benson

[SPEAKER 1]
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On this episode, we're talking with Ian Benson, an internationally recognized horseman who developed the humanship method, which helps people become mindful and respectful partners for their horses.

[SPEAKER 2]
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There's such a big difference between helping someone to learn and teaching someone. So if you teach someone, the unsaid message is be like me. If you help someone to learn, you encourage people to be themselves.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from wehorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Ian Benson's focus is a relationship between horse and human. He believes that all change comes from us as humans. This means we need to change. The method of humanship is all about the whole relationship between you and your horse. All the parts of each of our characters coming together to create the relationship as it is now. Humanship includes a comprehensive philosophy and a practical approach with everyday exercises from the ground and from the saddle. The focus of the exercises is on implementing them in everyday life of the horse and on refining communication from horseback. We're going to be discussing humanship and so much more in today's episode. So let's dive in. Ian, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. We're really excited to have you here. It's really nice to be here. So I'd love to go back to the very beginning. How did you get started with horses and what were your first few years like as a horse person?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, that's a bit of a long story, really. But I always had a passion for horses as a child, but was never allowed one. And so I had a few friends that had horses and I used to annoy them enough so I could ride their horses. Didn't really know a lot. And then I moved to the city and discovered girls and motorbikes.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Right.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And so I didn't really pick up horses again. A friend took me for a horse trek when I was in my late 20s. And she said, oh, you could do this sort of thing on your farm. And the idea never went away. And about a year and a half later, without ever owning a horse, I bought a horse or was given a horse with the idea of setting up this horse trekking business. And six months later, I had 10 horses and was open for business.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Wow.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. So I became a professional horseman really fast. with taking the ownership of my first horse. And I definitely learned by doing. Yeah, so that was the very beginning. And then I was a farmer before that. And the idea of working with horses or working with people, I don't know what actually scared me more. It turned out the horses were the easy part. And so I successfully built that business up over the years and to the point where I was taking about three and a half thousand people riding per year. But also right at the beginning of starting that business, I was introduced to another way of being with horses. I went to a workshop run by an Australian horseman by the name of Merv Kildee. And Merv Kildee had spent some time in the USA with Tom Dorrens. And so I went to this workshop. Well, it didn't really have a name. It was called Problem Horse Workshop. And this guy, Merv Kildee, turned our fire-breathing monster horses into little lambs in a very short space of time, which just totally blew me away. And I think I stood there for three days with my mouth open in wonder what he was doing. Yeah. So that was over 30 years ago now.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Do you wish you could have a better partnership with your horse but aren't sure where to start? Do you want to advance your riding or horsemanship but don't have access to the ideal resources in your area? Does the idea of learning about horse training whenever and wherever and at a price that won't break your horse bank sound appealing to you? Check out WeHorse.com to access over 175 online courses with top trainers from around the world. We have courses on everything from dressage to groundwork to show jumping to body work. And as a member, you get access to everything in our WeHorse library to watch whenever you want. Oh, and we also have an app, which means you can download a course or video to watch without Wi-Fi, which is perfect for those days of the program when you want a quick dose of training inspiration before your ride. So what are you waiting for? Go to WeHorse.com and check out our free seven-day trial to access our WeHorse library and see if it's a good fit for you. We can't wait to see you in there. And now, back to the episode. Was that the big transition for you to realize there's another way with horses and started you on the journey to where you are today?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Oh, absolutely, yeah, because I didn't really have a way with horses. I hadn't been through the system of learning. I had a way with animals anyway. I was a farmer, had an affinity for cows and dogs and generally all animals, and definitely had this childhood passion for horses reawakened um at that moment and you know over 30 years ago a different way of working with horses was way out in left field it was kind of i never talked to anybody about it i think everyone at the workshop didn't talk to anybody about it because the horse world would think we're a bit crazy and um so i just sort of quietly moused along at home and and tried ideas out and um But probably the most valuable lesson I learned from that first workshop was that after the three days Merv Kildee went back to Australia and we're left there with our horses. There's no books or videos or DVDs, no YouTube, no equipment. And so the first lesson really was your horse is your teacher. And today I still consider myself a student of the horse.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Absolutely. Absolutely. What led you to develop humanship? And let's talk all about that as well. Like what is humanship maybe to start?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Okay. I can give you, it used to take hours to explain what humanship is. I can do it in one sentence now. And that is that humanship helps us to become better humans for our horse. Yeah. So if we go back and how we got to that point, um, I was taking all these people riding. I took something like 35,000 people riding over the years in the trekking, and I became really fascinated with how my horses built relationships with complete strangers. And it was like I could put 10 different people on one horse, and it was like having 10 different horses. And even if those riders were experienced riders, it was still like having 10 different horses. So I came up with an idea that maybe people rode or handled horses exactly how they lived their life. So having that idea was one thing, but I had no idea what to do with it. And it wasn't for a few years later that a friend of mine came to learn to ride with me. And she's a clinical psychologist and she's from Germany. And on about her third lesson, she said, Ian, this hasn't got anything to do with horses, what you're doing. It's more about me and my fear. And she said, write me a therapy program and I'll bring some clients out. And it was like, well, what do I know about therapy? I'm just a farmer. I'm a horse guy, but it got me thinking about how I was bringing people into contact with horses and working that through. And so really that was the beginning of the human ship idea. So the therapist friend did bring some children out, only children clients out, and we worked with the horses, not teaching, just allowing them to interact and help them to reflect on that interaction. And it was amazing the impact that the horses had on these kids, like life-changing impact. And, yeah, so it was really, really kind of – it was interesting. But the thing with the human ship, it's still evolving. I definitely don't know it all. I don't understand it all. And, yeah, so it's just an ongoing evolution of that. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I think, too, you made a point, a good point about how the horses change the children and how they can have us reflecting in. But there's also the aspect of the human changing the horses, like you had mentioned as well. And that can be a very difficult conversation to have with people. It's hard for us to tell ourselves we have to do the inner work. How do you open up that conversation?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Well, the horses do. It's basically if you can observe something really cleanly without a judgment, like the horses are really nonjudgmental in the way they interact with the human, and they're just interacting with what's presented, the energy that's presented. And so if we can follow up more with a question, so you facilitate a learning process in the human just as much as you do in the horse. You don't try and teach them anything and say, oh, you know, Get the person to reflect, oh, what just happened then? Did you notice something? And see if they do, and then just work through from that point. You've got to come alongside the person and not confront them. There's a time to challenge, for sure. But it's really about just... finding that little way inside. And some people are a lot easier than others. If I'm working with a Kiwi male, for example, we don't mention the F word, feelings. But other people are really open to that, and some people are really looking for that difference. But it is a challenge, and I've never had any training in this area, sort of stuff and um it was it came very intuitively like people were i when i first noticed that i had something happening it's people were coming to visit me when i was trekking and i get into a panic because i think oh i've forgotten the booking and i said no no just calm down here and it's it's it's okay we haven't booked we just come out here to say thank you it's like what for um oh you said something while we're out riding that had a really major impact on my life And went around, went away and did something about that. And so, yeah, there's an intuitive knowing. Yeah. So, and from that I've learned. Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER 1]
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You said something so beautiful, and I want to reflect it back, is going along with the person. And rather than pointing stuff out to them to say, well, you're doing this wrong, or you're thinking this way, or here's your mindset block, or here's the story you're telling yourself. It's more so... Did you notice the change that just happened? And I love that because people are going to respond so differently to it versus if, you know, you just kind of come right up to them and put something in front of them. We all have our walls and our blocks, and I absolutely love that. I love the point that you just made there.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And it's like I get to watch a lot of writing teachers teaching, and they just don't shut up. They're talking, talking, talking the whole time, and it's by the time, A, by the time they've told you what to do, you've missed the moment anyway, and you're so focused on trying to feel what's going on that you come into a different mode where you're having to listen and speak, which just takes you out of the feeling. Yeah. And as being... And horses is a feeling activity. It's not a thinking one. You have to have a plan, sure. But at the end of the day, the interaction is through feel. And it's much better to allow a process to come along and help the person reflect on that. Did you notice that? What could you do differently? And now, I think there's such a big difference between helping someone to learn and teaching someone. So if you teach someone, the unsaid message is be like me. If you help someone to learn, you encourage people to be themselves. And everybody's different in the way they learn, in the way they interact. But it all leads into the path the person has to find it. And it's the same with the horse. You know, you can train a horse till you're blue in the face and it may or may not repeat what you've taught it to do. But if you help the horse to learn, it becomes its property and it expresses that learning all the time. And it's just a process and we can't force it on there. And, you know, everybody learns different. Every horse learns differently. Some are quick, some are not so quick. And so to allow the process. We tend to be, as human beings, a little bit too goal-focused and a little bit less process-oriented. But horses are phenomenal at learning from their experience. If you look at a foal being born, within the first hour of its life, it's learned how to do three things. And any one of those things, if it doesn't learn how to do it, it will die. How to stand up, how to move, and how to find the milk. And so there's no instruction manual. There's no one to teach it. Its mother's there to support it. It's got the instincts, if you like, to drive it. But it has to do it all by itself. And, you know, if you see enough foals born, you realize that everyone develops its own style of getting up onto its legs for the first time.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, I love that so much. I want to also read a line that's from your website. It's from the What Is Humanship section of the website. It says, there is no difference between a thought in our head and an action in the horse's feet. It's all connected. It's all energy. I love that so much. So can you explain more about it?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:15:40-00:18:23]
Well, everything's energy, really. You know, a thought is just a little electrical impulse in our brain. It's no different to a horse's thought. It's a little electrical impulse. So it's like if I take the horse out of the equation, there's, you know, I have a thought in my head and it's, or comes into action through my feet, if you like, in the way of movement. There is a communication that goes on in that. Don't ask me to explain that. I had a doctor explain it to me once, and I still went on the wiser at the end. But the same process happens within the horse. So if it's all energy, it all must connect. So what I want to do is to connect that thought in my brain to my horse's feet, to my horse's body so that we become one, if you like. It's not me sitting on top of a horse and it's not a horse underneath a human. There's a beautiful Japanese proverb that I heard that's neither a horse beneath the saddle nor a human above. And so you become a new entity when you're connected fully in that way. And I think most people that have ridden even just a little bit have had those moments where they just thought what they wanted to do and the horse is doing it. And that's what it is. How do we take that and expand it so that it becomes, you know, those moments that you experience that become a bit longer and the gaps between those moments become a bit shorter so you really start to live it. I'm not there all the time, especially when I'm teaching. I have those moments from time to time. So I'm on exactly the same journey, and it's the best feeling in the world. So what humanship is is really helping people to become aware of themselves and how to build that process and the little parts that block that process. And those little parts that block the process are built around our fear. And so when we're in our fear, and even if we're not present, we're not in that moment, we're in fear. We're either in front or behind the moment. And that means we're in our fear. And so the energy stops flowing. We have a blockage in the energy through that. So we can't, it's impossible to transmit that thought to our horse's feet.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I love it. I absolutely, absolutely love it. If someone was brand new to this and let's say they had no idea where to get started for themselves, for their horses, what would you recommend they get started with for their journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:18:42-00:20:38]
Sitting down and watching horses interact. You can learn so much about that. And it's become this kind of something a little bit different that most people look at a herd of horses and say, oh yeah, that's the lead galloping and that's the lead mare. And this is the order, the hierarchy. And what we've discovered over the years is that, and we have a herd here with 20 plus horses in it. And some of the horses have been together for over 20 years. And the herd is very, very stable. There's lots of brothers, sisters, half brothers, half sisters. And, um, What we found is there's no real hierarchy. In different situations, different horses come to the lead. So the different horses have roles within the herd, and all of those roles lead to the survival of the herd into the future. So often we look at a herd of horses through our... human filter which is based around hierarchy opposition competition all of those things and all we see is a hierarchy in in the herd itself but um but a lot of herds they you know they have the different horses have never been socialized correctly they haven't got enough space or enough food um which creates dominant behavior or can create dominant behavior But, you know, the horses in this herd here, they might, it's more a discussion about who wants to eat with who, not who gets all the food. Yeah. So who wants to dine at the same table? And the horses go, oh, yeah, I just go over here then. There's no big fuss and bother about that.

[SPEAKER 1]
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There's no food scarcity.

[SPEAKER 2]
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No. And what's really interesting is that I brought a horse in, or we brought a horse in many years ago, and he was very food aggressive. And he used to attack all the other horses and protect all the hay stations that are all his. And after a few days, basically the herd stood back and let him have his little rant and rave about all the food being his. And when he was eating, they went and ate beside him. He was the one that was wasting all the energy and not eating, and the other horses were just standing there just waiting for a few minutes, and then it all goes. But the herd trained him. He's still a little bit – he has a little bit – it puts his years back. He doesn't attack anymore, but you can still see the emotional scar that he has from that. Yeah. The dominant behavior generally has a reason. It doesn't come if a horse is brought up in a herd or foal is brought up in a herd. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:40-00:22:08]
Yeah, that's a good point. What about suggestions for the humans, like directly themselves? So if somebody wanted to... be able to be more aware of their body language or their mindset, you know, rather than having no idea where their body is, what they're doing, how their stance is, what their energy is like, or letting their mind trail off. You know, what would you kind of recommend for that?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:10-00:24:15]
It's – there's lots and lots of ways. It's about – again, it's about being present and being aware. So it's funny, like – I never had a riding lesson until I was in my middle 40s, a riding lesson with a human being. And when I got my first horse, I read a book, the New Zealand Pony Club Manual. And that's how I learned to ride. And I just kind of had a look at your feet are supposed to be here, your hands are here, you sit this way and da, da, da, da, da. And so then I wrote. And I realized that I couldn't focus on everything all at once. And so I'd get on the horse and write, okay, today I'm going to focus on what my hands are doing. And everything else just went to the pack and I just focused on my hands. The next step might be how I was sitting or where my legs were or... Things like that. And then over time, I just keep repeating through that. I could bring into two things at a time. Okay, I'll focus on my feet and my hands today. And then how I sit until it all came together. So it was a really conscious effort of awareness, of self-awareness. And so we can do that. It's like, okay, let's focus on what my left hand's doing. And build it that way. Because most of us are not... aware of our body, particularly when we get into our fear. So we might be looking in one direction. We're looking at the low branch that we don't want the horse to go under and then turning the horse out to the right, for example. Where's the horse going to go? Exactly where you're looking. Under the low branch. But we can't help it. We focus on where we don't want to go often. rather than where we do want to go, or we focus on what we don't want the horse to do rather than what we do want the horse to do. And a lot of people I find do that in life too. They know what they don't want. but they really don't know what they want. So we really have to look inside and build that conscious awareness of ourselves.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I'm such a geek on this stuff. I hate using the word geek, but I can't think of any other word that describes it other than I could just talk about this and ask these questions all day long. It's so fascinating to me. Do you have a personal experience, whether it's with one of your horses or with a client that you were able to witness that stands out to you from this work that you can share with us?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Oh, there are so many. Oh, just having to think about that. Actually, I'll tell you with one of the first children. that I worked with with that therapist. It was more a therapy session. And I asked him, I said, get your pony and lead it up to the round pen. It's about 200 meters, I suppose, to the round pen. And so he sets off and the therapist wanted to follow and I held her back and I said, just wait here. And he went about 20 meters and then the pony turned around and brought him back. And he turned the pony around and then the pony turned him around and went on for 40 minutes. We allowed that process, and the session came to an end. We called him over. And before the therapist or I could say anything, he said, you know, I can be a good leader, but I'm just so easily led.

[SPEAKER 1]
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What a smart thing for a child to say.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, I know. He was about 10, I suppose, and it was very profound. And so we just asked him how that worked for him, you know, at home with his parents and family, at school with his teachers and his friends. And he said something. I can't recall what he said. And then off he went. Two weeks later, he came back for his next session. I said, right, we start where we left off. Grab your pony and head up to the round pen. And he took the pony straight up to the round pen. So a process happened that was really clean of the therapist or my fingerprints. He did his homework, if you like. There was something happened inside him that made that change. I'm just trying to think of a really profound one in the writing sense. I was a client many years ago in Germany that her horse was always running her leg around the wall in the riding hall. And in listening to her talking and everything, she was always talking about what she didn't want or what the horse had done wrong. And she never really had much to say about what the horse did nicely. Yeah, so most people focus on the problem, which is probably 1% of the horse behavior. And they forget about the 99% that works well. Anyway, I worked it through and said, okay, now focus on where you want to go. Leave the wall out of your equation. And immediately the horse came off the wall. Anyway, she's telling me about a year later, she said, oh, you know, the horse hasn't taken me against the wall for the last year. And one day I did a little experiment. I changed my thinking. to keep away from the wall, and bang, her leg was hard against the wall again. So it can be as simple as a thought that creates the difference. The process is a little bit like watching paint dry. It's not so obvious, and other times it's just totally profound.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:27:54-00:28:21]
That is an absolutely perfect place for us to wrap up. I think that is such a smart, like you said, profound thought to leave us with, that essentially our thoughts become our reality and they become our horse's reality. And there's a quote on your site as well. I'm going to link it into the title here. We need to be the change we want to see in our horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:22-00:28:23]
Exactly.

[SPEAKER 1]
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I just love it. Do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Get to the point where you know your horse knows that you know. It's not my saying. It's someone else's expression, but I really, really like it. It sums it all up. That's when you know.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
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there's been quite a few influential people and but one of the the most influential was an organic gardener friend was the husband of my cousin and we had a conversation about energy and and after that conversation i didn't sleep for two or three days because or two or three nights because i just couldn't get rid of this idea of energy and how it affected everything. And so one of my best horsemanship lessons came from an organic gardener. I had another good lesson from a professional golfer once over a coffee. It's like, where does the human body end and the horse begin? And then where does the horse end and the land and the environment begin? So it's about becoming one. And then Merv Kildee was the starting point too. So I have a lot to thank him for to bring me into this journey.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:51-00:30:06]
If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be? Focus on what you want to happen and enter a process to create it. Please complete this sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:07-00:30:14]
That's a really good question. There's so many things, so many words I can complete that with. It's teacher.

[SPEAKER 1]
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You had said earlier that I absolutely loved it. It was, you said, the first lesson, riding lesson I ever had. And then you corrected yourself and you said, the first riding lesson I ever had with a human. As if to say, because you've had many riding lessons from horses. And I just loved it. Yeah. Ian, we're going to link your website in our show notes, but is there anywhere else that people can find you and connect with you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:44-00:31:05]
That's about it, really. I'm not really on Facebook much these days. Yeah, my ex-wife, Anke, she holds up the business in Germany, so there's a lot of contact with her through the – I think there's a – Humanship.de as well works. Okay.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:05-00:31:12]
We can link to that. We have mainly English listeners, so we'll put the New Zealand link on the show notes.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:12-00:31:57]
Yeah, yeah. And that website is so out of date that I never really have time or the inclination or the technological ability to make too many changes to it. So the whole philosophy is there, but it's developed a lot over the years too. And it's interesting, my daughter, her friends often asked her, what does your dad do? And she thought about it for a minute and she said, you've just got to be there. And really that's what it is. Humanship is an experience. It's experience as interaction forces. So it's just a process, a journey. And the journey is the goal.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:59-00:32:20]
Well, you've given us lots on this podcast interview to think about and digest and all of the things. There were so many golden moments in this. As we were going through, I was thinking, oh, that's a quote we're going to have to pull. Oh, that's a quote we're going to have to pull. There was just so many things in this. So thank you so much, Ian, for your time and for sharing your wisdom with us.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:32:21-00:32:23]
It's been a pleasure. Absolute pleasure, Danielle.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:26-00:32:60]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection Podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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