#58 How Equestrians are Prequalified for Activism with EquUSCAN

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:00:02-00:00:16]
On this episode, we're talking with Elsie Reford and Kait Miller, the founders of EquUSCAN, a North American-based equestrian cooperative dedicated to raising awareness and increasing activism and advocacy for global humanitarian efforts.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:17-00:00:33]
The mission of our organization is to empower members of the equestrian community to use their voice and their skills to stand up and show their solidarity and raise awareness for this in their own communities and become an active part of the solution.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:00:35-00:01:54]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. The purpose of EquUSCAN is to engage equestrians, specifically in the US and Canada, though everyone is welcome, in social justice work and global activism. Equiscan is a resource hub, highlighting and amplifying important humanitarian causes around the world and providing actionable avenues through which you can get involved and contribute to making a difference, as well as help those who need it most and reduce harm and suffering for vulnerable and targeted populations. Equiscan believes that your voice matters, and they want to empower you to use it for the greater good. Kate and Elsie truly believe that aligning equine advocacy work with social justice and global activism is the next evolution of the Horse Human Partnership, and they are excited to be creating a platform that intentionally fosters the merging of those spheres. Are you interested? Let's dive in. Elsie and Kait, I'm so excited to welcome you to the podcast. I was, of course, scrolling on social media one day and I got a message from Elsie letting me know about this new initiative and organization, essentially, that you guys have started. And I just knew that I wanted to introduce it to the WeHorse audience. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:54-00:01:55]
Thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:56-00:01:59]
Thank you so much. We're really excited to be here.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:01:59-00:02:08]
Awesome. How did this idea even come about? Like, how did you think to combine the equestrian world with social justice?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:09-00:03:04]
Yeah, that's a really good question. So essentially, an Instagram message to Elsie kind of is what started it. Going back to before A couple of years ago, I had actually, before I met Elsie, I had a really cool experience with my mare, which really just informed kind of how I've been operating since having that experience. And following that experience, kind of, like, opened up my world, and I've had, like, this big adventure that has kind of followed that, which included connecting with Elsie and connecting with equine consciousness more deeply. And so I really started through that process kind of considering my actions and my role in the world and kind of what I want to do and what kind of role model I should be for my son. So that kind of led me to exploring activism a bit, and I guess the rest is kind of history.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:03:04-00:03:06]
Yeah. Awesome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:03:06-00:03:25]
How did you guys meet? So we were both participants in Alexa Linton's Whole Horse Apprenticeship. And I've been doing that program for several years because you can return once you initially register. And Kait, I think it was your last your first year.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:03:25-00:03:44]
Sorry. Yeah, this was my first year. Yeah. So Alexa Linton really kind of introduced each other to one another. And yeah, Kind of allowed us to connect with each other and with this conscious experience. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:03:44-00:04:17]
Awesome. I had Alexa on the podcast. Gosh, I cannot remember the episode number. But if anybody wants to go back and search for it, Alexa was on the podcast at some point last year, I believe. And I loved speaking with her. I it made me really want to join her apprenticeship because I just thought, like, if I got so much from like an hour talking to her on a podcast, like, what am I going to get from from that sort of a program? So that's really cool that you guys met that way. Yeah. And that you've done it. So that's really cool.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:18-00:05:31]
Yeah, we had a chance to connect in person because as part of Alexa's program, there's an in-person retreat. And we did that together in the spring. So Kate came up from Washington. And that's how we met and kind of how things got started in terms of creating the organization, too, because... Kate, after interacting in person, reached out to me over Instagram because I had been posting my thoughts as well as different resources regarding the ongoing genocide happening in Gaza. And Kate reached out and said, hey, I have this crazy idea. I hope I'm not overstepping. Do you want to take that passion and that spark to do something and unite people to try to improve these situations together through some kind of organization that blends equestrians with social justice work. And I was like, uh, hell yeah, you're overstepping. Like, please DM me. I am so down.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:05:31-00:05:32]
Yeah. That's awesome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:05:33-00:06:38]
Definitely. I like slid into all these DMS. I, um, after that retreat, I had a long drive back home and I was kind of thinking to myself, like just in my head, like, wow, I just experienced this amazing weekend. And all of these people are really on the same wavelength as me. And like, I don't, Can we swear? Like, there's a bunch of people that give a crap, right? I was like, oh! Like, there's a bunch of people out there who give a darn in the equestrian world. And just by nature, like, we're connected with equestrianism. because we have like that shared consciousness with each other. So when I'm sitting here feeling all alone, looking at all of these social issues that are out there, like what better group for me to connect with than the group that I already know I connect with on a soul level and who I already know like has that same shared empathy for the human condition as I do.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:06:38-00:07:13]
Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's this, I mean, fascinating phenomenon where it's like, I say it all the time that my horses teach me more about being a human than humans teach me. It's you, you come up with so much of your triggers and your shadows and you see so much light as well. And it's like this incredible experience. And, and so I'd love to, to hear your, how the idea of equine advocacy and social activism pairs so well from your guys' opinions.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:07:15-00:11:27]
Well, I really started thinking about this in the spring, and that's one of the posts that I wrote on my personal Instagram was just noticing how well-poised equestrians are, especially those who are... interested and passionate in terms of ethical horsemanship and being in a conscious relationship, a consensual relationship with the horses in their lives, trying to do better by the equines in their lives through multiple different means. It's just like we... have been out in the barn, out in the field, practicing these skills day in and day out, how to be grounded in ourselves, how to open our awareness to subtle forms of communication, how to notice, okay, I think something's off here. What am I going to do about that? How am I going to advocate and maybe educate myself further on topics that I'm less knowledgeable about. How am I going to reach out to community and crowdsource some kind of a solution for this issue that I might be facing with my horse, right? Like we... incredibly well connected in our equine communities through the power of the Internet, especially in the last couple of years since the pandemic. So much is possible. And we're just, in my opinion, this amazing community. cohort of people who are practicing these really fine tuned skills when it comes to their awareness and their sensitivity to the beings around them on a daily basis. And to me, I think part of it is just realizing like, okay, this is, doesn't exist in a vacuum. Like what is the purpose beyond just having a great relationship with our horse? I think I'm naturally a very like zoomed out, big picture kind of thinker. And I'm like, this doesn't need to end here. What are we actually practicing for? How can we apply these skills to the greater good? And I felt Like I wasn't seeing, especially over the course of the last nine, nearing 10 months now of the conflict and the absolute devastation that we're seeing occurring in Palestine. I really saw a lack of cohesive vocalization around that issue in the equestrian community. And to me, I was like, I don't get this because I see so many fantastic people that I really admire their work and their perspective posting about the intricacies and the nuances of how they relate to and communicate with horses and the ways that they've been able to. find creative solutions to deal with myriad different mystery, like complicated issues with their horses, whether it be health, behavioral, et cetera. And I was like, okay, we clearly have the skills of the community, but there's, there's not necessarily the, that connection being made as to how we can apply this on a global scale. And I felt like that was really sad, to be honest, and something that I found frustrating and wanted to change. And yeah, I think Kate was feeling that way too. And I'm really happy that she reached out to me because it really helped me understand that There's something that I could do beyond just talking about it personally to actually maybe get the ball rolling for this to take over a more systemic place in the industry.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:11:29-00:12:22]
You said something that I feel is just really profound, and I want to just repeat it and highlight it. You said, what are we practicing for? And I just think that that is such a profound question to be asking ourselves, you know, in multiple areas of our life, but including, you know, when it comes to essentially our own inner work that we do for our horsemanship. It's like you said, it's like it can go beyond that. So what are we practicing for? I just I love that that you said that. So I just wanted to highlight it. On the website and on your social media, you have some details of like your mission and your commitments and things like that. Are you able to to go into detail of each of them and just kind of explain them for everybody?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:12:23-00:12:29]
Yeah, absolutely. Kate, what do you think? Do you want to talk a little bit about that or do you want me to take the mic for that one?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:12:30-00:14:09]
Yeah, I can kind of start and then I'm happy to hand it over. This is one of those things that Elsie is just really like the most more powerful speaker on. I'm like the big touchy feeling. I'll talk about feelings all day. Elsie is like very factual and pieced together in her delivery. So, yeah. The issue that we initially connected on, of course, is the ongoing genocide that is happening in Palestine. I think that that was, like, first and foremost, the issue that we connected on. It's obviously, like... For me, it's an issue that I can't ignore anymore. And it was kind of the catalyst for me reaching out to Elsie is that I just was seeing all of this content coming at me. And we have this like the word content, even it's like, how is a genocide being perpetrated? delivered to us as a piece of content. Like how, how can I as a person be witnessing these things and not deeply connect with it and not feel like I have to do something more like I have to. Um, so really the, the ongoing situation in Gaza was the initial thing that connected us. And we're also, um, We're exploring Sudan, Congo, and a lot of the issues that are ongoing on the continent of Africa. So that's kind of where we're going next, I think.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:14:10-00:19:25]
Yeah. And basically, the mission of our organization is to empower members of the equestrian community to use their voice and their skills to to stand up and show their solidarity and raise awareness for this in their own communities and become an active part of the solution. So... We just really noticed, as I was saying, that lack of cohesiveness in terms of activism for humanitarian causes in the equestrian community. I think it's worth noting that there are some folks out there who have been doing this work long before we started. stepped up with this organization who have been fighting for diversity and inclusion in their equestrian spaces, who have been vocally talking about issues such as the genocide in Gaza and further humanitarian issues, as well as just social and political issues, especially in the United States. So there's some really wonderful members of the equestrian community already doing this work. They've been doing it for a long time. behind the scenes, working hard, putting their voices out there. And that's something that is so needed. And it's such a strong role model for the rest of us to really understand the value in that. And so Kate and I really felt like we could create a resource hub where education and actionable avenues could come together so that hopefully equestrians who are We're kind of operating basically on the premise that a lot of people care about this, but they are frozen in terms of where to start, what to do, where to go. And so they don't feel like they can engage in it because they feel overwhelmed and over their heads. So we felt as though creating a resource hub somewhere where people could get small bits of information that have been compiled and curated in a way that is easy to find online because If you think about it, if you're trying to get a group of people involved in activism, that means that a part of them has to sit down during the day and say, OK, I'm going to pay attention to this for X amount of time. And a lot of people in general, not even talking about in the equestrian industry where people are, you know, maybe working from sunup until sundown on the farm, etc. Like that can be a bit of a tall order, especially if they've never... sat down and thought about this before. They're like, well, I'm not going to start now. So we really want to operate on this like, OK, we're giving people the benefit of the doubt that they actually care about this and that somewhere inside of them, they know where they stand on these issues. But there are potentially certain and several barriers in place that are preventing them from being visible in their And showing up in their community spaces and saying, hey, this is what I stand for. This is what I believe in. This is what I want to do to start creating change and impact. And so we're with that being said. We recognize like, hey, we're two white girls. We don't have the. lived experience. And frankly, we don't have backgrounds in education, like in political science or in public health or any kind of credentials per se to be the authoritarian experts on these subjects. And we're not trying to be. We are want to create conversations in our communities that aren't otherwise being had. And the equestrian community is so privileged that we need to be talking about these things because we are poised from a resource perspective, from a time perspective, to be able to actually make an impact on these situations if we come together and talk about it. And so we just really wanted to create that space where we're able to amplify those who are more knowledgeable and have lived experience with these issues and are more well-connected with organizations and spheres of activists all over the world so that equestrians have like, okay, I have one place to go. I'm going to do some activism today. I'm going to sign some petitions. I'm going to donate. I'm going to attend a community meeting with us. I'm going to read an article. And they're engaging in it in a way that is accessible and that fuels their desire and their sense of empowerment to keep going because they know they're surrounded by a group of people that they're already feel connected to and familiar with.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:19:26-00:20:12]
Yeah, I agree with everything that Elsie said, really, and kind of add on to that feedback there is that. Like, yes, there are other organizations out there who are better at activism. They're better at education. They're better at whatever the piece is. We're not saying that we're the best activists by any means. But what I'm saying is that every single person owes it to activism. every single other person to just use the tool that they have access to. And if that's just a connection with another individual or just being able to reach out to someone that you're comfortable reaching out with, like I did with Elsie, like that needs to be the tool that you utilize. Just start where you're at.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:20:14-00:21:39]
Yeah, I love that. I love that. It's like giving different options of different capacities, because like you had mentioned, it can feel overwhelming to get started. You're like, well, I don't have the money or like to place a donation or whatever. Even those thoughts that many people have where it's like, well, I'm just one voice. Well, what kind of impact can I have? And all of those different things. What's the point of even getting started? Yeah. So I love that, number one, you guys highlight some different options. And also, all of those options are different capacities for wherever people currently feel that they are, you know, whether it's room to grow or whether it's this is the amount that I can do at this time. So I love that. I love that you, you know, have those different things available for people. And so I want to just skip ahead for a sec and talk about the virtual meetings that you guys offer, because that's something that I feel is like a low lift, accessible way for people to kind of, you know, start to understand what things are all about and start to get their feet wet, for lack of a better term. So can you talk about those virtual meetings and what people can expect if they join them?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:40-00:22:38]
Yeah, yeah. So the virtual meetings, those have kind of spawned from, and I'll let Elsie talk a little bit more too, but they have kind of spawned from just like doing what we've said this, like, what can we do? What would I be doing with my friends if we all lived locally and I needed support or I needed a conversation is we would be going out to coffee or we would be going and you know, grabbing a bite to eat or drink or hanging out in the yard, whatever the case is. So really that's where that came from is that we just want to make things accessible for people where they're at. And the kind of like workshop support group, kind of vibe that we're hoping that those virtual meetings have is, I think, where people can connect deeply and have support from each other.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:38-00:26:54]
Yeah, so we are basically formatting the meetings at this point, as Kate said, to foster that kind of support group slash workshop style where equestrians from all different backgrounds can gather in a judgment and shame-free space to have these conversations, to get support from one another, to learn from one another, to show up with one another on these issues. Because I know that I personally felt, certainly over the last year, this sense of like, wow, I... just received some news online about a certain issue, about an update, about a hate crime, whatever the case may be. You know, pick a day. It's happening all the time. And that is really deeply affecting me, and I'm wondering... A, where do I go to even begin to process the emotions? Where can I, who has time for me to say, hey, I need a phone call right now and talk about this. I'm feeling really bowled over by this and I want to talk about it and I want to move through that experience to get to the other side of like, okay, I feel ready to take action in some capacity. surrounding this and not just feel overwhelmed and hopeless. And so we really want to foster that support network atmosphere in these meetings where right now we're working with a framework where for the first half of the meeting we pose a question and we're going to ask you this question Danielle today if you're open to it. So this month we're working with the question of what challenges do you feel you face or others face when it comes to speaking out against injustice and being visible in their activism? So we can kind of get to your answer in a second, but that's the basis of our discussion portion. And of course, that can go in different directions. And the point is really just to talk about what we're going through with regard to these issues, how we're witnessing them and what we can do to brainstorm solutions for that, as well as just get support and community around this, because there's nothing worse than witnessing this alone and feeling helpless. empowered and then we're doing a small education and action segment at the end of the meeting so again this month we're talking about the boycott divest sanction movement which is super impactful way for citizens to put their money where their values are and we're including links to petitions that can be signed for arms embargoes for Canadians and Americans targeting That's basically a cease in the trade of arms back and forth to Israel. So that goes both ways, of course. The arms that Canada and the U.S. are sending to Israel, as well as the military equipment that they receive from Israel. So it's a two-way street there, a two-way sanction, hopefully. Okay. And that's super important to hold Israel accountable with the new International Court of Justice ruling that states they are illegally occupying Palestine officially. So it's up to citizens to put pressure on governments to do that. So we want to provide different ways that people can take that action. And every month we're going to be changing the theme. So we have one more virtual meeting happening on August 24th. And yeah, we're just really excited to be hosting these meetings because even Kate and I will meet once a week to talk about the organization and how we want things to go. And those interactions are already so supportive.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:26:55-00:27:21]
That's awesome. I love that you're creating that safe space for everybody. Like you said, a judgment and shame-free zone, I think is really important because a lot of people are like, oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing or I don't know very much and I don't want to come across as uneducated, you know, whatever it may be, all of the things that run through people's heads. So I love that you led with it's a judgment and shame-free zone. So that's awesome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:27:22-00:27:47]
Yeah, absolutely. Because it's a huge barrier. I mean, that is something that we both talked about and it's why we, we wanted to start off our meetings with that question of like, what barriers do you feel you face when it comes to being visible in your activism? Because if we can't get past those, we've got nothing to stand on. Hmm.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:27:47-00:29:02]
Yeah, that's exactly it. And we've we've talked a bit to Elsie. Like what did we say is that like activism, really what it boils down to is like being going off of your reel that Daniel saw and reached out about is like, can I be an activist? Like, am I an activist? Well, everyone can be an activist. It's just a matter of how you put that into action, like what the act is. And then it's also, it boils down to a resourcing issue. So if you're not resourced with the knowledge, the financial, the time, the resources, empathy, the whatever, how can we expect you to act? We need to be able to resource people, even if that resource is really just like a little bit of support and a direction that they're already leaning or maybe it's you know conversation prompts that we can help share like this really worked for me to talk to a family member about this or this is how I roomed Thanksgiving dinner or you know like whatever the case is yeah Yeah.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:29:02-00:30:12]
And the reel that Kate is mentioning, just for those listening, it's on their Instagram page, which, of course, we're going to link in the show notes. And it's a super fun reel. Elsie is doing the voiceover as well as it's the video clips. And it's like, of course, I'm a horse girl. Yeah. I have so many videos of my horse on my phone. I'm like trying to do this off memory. It's like, of course, I'm a horse girl. Like it says all the very common things. And then it says like at the very end about being pre-qualified as an equestrian to also be a social activist. And so the word pre-qualified, and I know that you led that reel or another post, at least, that said, are you qualified to be an activist? And that right away, like that's a strong use of words because you're like, what do you mean qualified? So can you speak to that a little bit as to what may be a barrier for some people in terms of like, quote, qualifications and how you believe that equestrians are pre-qualified? I know we touched on this a little bit earlier, but is there any like evidence Can we go a little deeper into that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:13-00:30:59]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll start us off. But really, I mean, any horse girl or horse person that you've ever met has been in a pressurized situation. Like inherently, if you deal with horses, you've been in a situation that has pushed your boundaries a little bit and tested your edges. Period. And so we've already practiced like being comfortable in our discomfort. So what better way to push that forward than to kind of pivot that? Like we already have that love and empathy and that like ability to manage our own discomfort. So let's just pivot and broaden. and go forward.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:31:02-00:33:24]
Yeah. It's, it's interesting as we're saying that, like, I just have this thing that comes to mind, which I feel so strongly in my heart. Um, so I've had, I always, for like a very majority of my life had a hard time, um, sort of advocate advocating for myself. Um, Not being able to speak up if, like, people were teasing me or if somebody said something that was a little degrading, you know, or whatever it may be. Even if I just simply didn't like something that they, you know, said or made a judgment on, I would always kind of laugh it off or, like, be nice. Like, don't ruffle any feathers. Don't upset anybody. And I was always risking. I didn't want to hurt anybody. And in turn, I was hurting myself. And so my horses have actually they've taught me to advocate for them. So I am so committed to being like an advocate for my horses that if somebody, a service provider, anything, even if somebody just says something about my horses, I'm like, don't talk to them that way. Like, I'm very much I feel so strongly that I need like I'm advocating for them. And in turn, that's taught me to advocate for myself. So by learning how to speak up for them, I've learned how to speak up for myself. So when somebody says something to me, it's like, no, I don't appreciate that. And so it's one of those things where it's like, so now let's take it a step further. So we advocate for those that don't have a voice. We advocate for those of us, you know, that we've been afraid to advocate for. And so now can we start to advocate for other people who, you know, maybe also don't have a voice, um, or, um, don't have the same privileges that we do or X, Y, Z, whatever it may be. Um, can we keep this like stone turning? Can we keep it going? Um, and I, and I learned that from horses, you know? So I just think that the pairing that you guys have done is so smart. Um, And it's something that so many of us, like you had mentioned, have inside of us. Maybe we just don't realize it yet. So I just love that. Sorry for my little tangent. I just think it's a great pairing.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:33:26-00:33:51]
Yeah, we all have that inside of us. It's just dialed down. Like I've heard people refer to that, refer to like the silk scarves, like when you're placing like silk scarves over a light, right? And now it's up to us to remove the layers and let that light shine a bit. And I got goosebumps when you were saying that.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:33:52-00:33:54]
Very, very true.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:33:54-00:33:54]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:33:55-00:34:08]
The silk scarves. I actually, I haven't heard that. And as you're explaining it, like, as you said it, I was like silk scarf. And it's like the more they let light through. So the more you take them off, the more I love that. That's awesome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:09-00:36:17]
I just, when I was listening to you speak, Danielle, it's just, it's so clear to me to see like courses have been oppressed, used, just violated for centuries and there are so many parallels between the various oppressed populations that are in our world suffering right now and we as equestrians who have walked with our horses along that journey of giving them back their autonomy of nourishing them to become these very vibrant and frankly, just such powerful souls. Like we have been able to steward them in a way that has given them their power back to be these incredible people. autonomous, sentient creatures who then can pass on these lessons to us. And it's just this beautiful interplay and channel. And so we have that ability to make impact and return the rights to these oppressed people so that they can be One, live a life free of suffering and two, shine forward into their fuller potential and purpose in this world. Like how beautiful would that be to not be constantly struggling for your basic survival? There are so many people in this world who've never known that privilege. And I would really love to see that change in my lifetime. I hope that it will happen. And I want to be a part of that and get as many people on board with that revolution as we can.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:36:17-00:36:25]
That's beautiful. What is the plan for the future? Where do you guys plan to go from here?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:36:26-00:37:12]
What can Equus do? When I first kind of put this idea at Halcyon, I kind of said like, Equus can like Equus can bring peace like maybe not world peace today but we can help push forward that peaceful process and peaceful agenda like we all have a right to live in a world that is is not what it is now. And so I think like Equus can promote peace and we can promote community and we can promote avenues for people to act in. I think there's a lot in store.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:37:14-00:37:32]
That's awesome. I also just got your acronym or I guess it's not necessarily an acronym, but I just got the name where I was like U.S. Canadian. Like I was putting it together as like North American thing. And when you said that, I was like, oh, my gosh, that's brilliant. The play on words. I love it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:33-00:37:34]
So my background is marketing.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:37:34-00:37:36]
Yeah, I love it.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:37:38-00:38:07]
So that's the future of the organization. I'd love to hear both of your answers. I ask all of the guests this because I just I feel like we're at a very pivotal time right now within the equestrian industry. I feel like there is a change that's happening. And I would love to hear from each of you. What is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:38:08-00:39:36]
Yeah, we were both talking about this question last night and Kate posed it to me and I was just looking at her and I think we just recognize the same feeling in one another's eyes of like, we really feel like the way forward in the equestrian industry is to dismantle the industry and rebuild it from the ground up. And that is really representative of the macro that we're seeing in the world right now. There's so much that is crumbling already and is needing to be dismantled. I think one of the, and I don't know who said this, but one of my favorite sayings or quotes that I've come across in recent times is, The system isn't broken. It's working exactly as it was intended or created. So the way forward isn't to fix the system. It's actually to dismantle it and rebuild from the ground up and from a place, from a feeling place inside that is so much different than how it was created in the first place.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:39:38-00:39:40]
That's big. That's powerful.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:41-00:39:42]
What do you think, Kait?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:44-00:39:45]
I might have some background noise.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:39:45-00:39:49]
That's okay. I don't hear anything, so you're good.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:49-00:41:02]
Okay. So my hope for the future of the equestrian industry, like Elsie was saying, is like, is there hope? I think there is, but I don't think that it is... built on the same institutions and the same dynamics that we've been fed, I think that change is a coming. And it's just a matter of what side of history we want to be on, like what side of the issues we want to look back and say, like, oh, I saw that one coming. Like, I want to see myself, like, on the forefront of that change, I don't want to be going down with the ship. And right now it appears like in a lot of things that you see that maybe the equestrian industry on a whole is thinking like it's not going to be what it has been. I hope there's change coming. So for better or worse, I think it's for better.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:41:03-00:41:05]
Yeah, yeah, change is certainly in the air.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:06-00:41:45]
Yeah, I think one of the things that I see a lot when I'm looking at the people that I admire and look up to is that my hope is that we can all be a little bit more vocal about what the issues are. The people that I really look up to in the industry are the ones who have spoken out about issues. And so my hope is just like, for whatever comes, I hope we can have a more open dialogue and we cannot like shove the issues into the back of a closet. Like we have for so long.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:41:47-00:42:07]
Yeah. The, um, The last episode, the last interview that I just did and the last episode that just aired, it just aired on Sunday. For those listening, it was... I like time is like, is avert. Like, it's just, it, I don't even know what day it is. Like whatever was last Sunday. It's now the eighth.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:07-00:42:11]
I think it was like the fifth or the fourth anyways of August.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:42:12-00:44:22]
So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and listen to it. It was with Rebecca Klubian, who was the investigative journalist, um, that uncovered the, um, the horse abuse that was happening at Helga Strand dressage stable. And so that was, that was a heavy episode where we looked at horse welfare and also looking at the courage to, to not only just speak up, but to like very publicly speak up. And we talked about how so much of everybody's fear of speaking up about issues, or everybody's, the reason why everybody stays quiet is fear. It comes down to that you don't want to be reprimanded or you don't want to be cast aside. You want to go with the way everybody else is going. You don't want to damage any relationships, right? There's so many different things that come into play as to why people may not speak up. And it's one of those things where we're at a point now where it's like, will any of that matter if we're breaking our own hearts by staying silent? And by breaking our own hearts, we're, you know... like repressing others. Like you had said, the idea of like using these horses, I feel like I can go on and on and on about this. And it just, once again, so beautifully ties in with the idea that if we are willing to be this passionate about the horses, can we be this passionate about the people as well? Like at the end of the day, we're all one. I'm going to get a little woo here because that's what I like. And I just feel like there is a beautiful pairing. And I've said it before and I'll say it again and again, like what you guys are doing of pairing the equestrian industry with social justice, I just think is part of the future.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:22-00:44:40]
Yeah. I believe so too. Yeah. I mean, there's... what is the point of having that connection and empathy and being conscious horse people? If we remove the people, like if we're not paying attention to the people part of it.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:44:41-00:45:11]
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. We're going to go into our rapid fire. It's a little bit more light and fun. So I'm going to ask each question and I'll get each of you to answer with your response for it. So the first one is, do you have a motto? Or Elsie, I'll start with you. You're on my Zoom screen. You're at the top. So that's why I'm choosing you to go first. So go Elsie and then Kait. Do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:12-00:45:43]
Yes. So I was laughing to myself because I was like, I only ever have a motto when no one is wondering what my motto is. I'm like, oh, that's my motto. But I for this episode and in general, I feel like it is very representative of who I am and what I believe in. And I love Mary Oliver. So this is just a quote from her. one of the ends of her poems, quite famous. Tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:45:45-00:46:17]
Okay, so before we go on, Kait, I was like, 21, so 13 years ago, working at a retail store. And there's the company Prana, the yoga wear. And they had that quote on their tag. And I remember I was, like, unbagging the yoga wear and, like, hanging it on the rack to go upstairs to be sold. And it had that quote on the tag. And I was, like, I had, like, this, like...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:18-00:46:19]
moment.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:46:19-00:46:33]
Um, and I have, I wrote it down in permanent marker and I still have it to this day. Like we've moved three times since then. And I still have that piece of paper on permanent marker over on like my bulletin board. I love that quote. So yay. That's awesome. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:34-00:46:59]
No pressure, Kait. It's a good one. Yeah. So I would say lately one that has been really speaking to me is Maggie Kuhn, who's a pretty cool lady if you look her up. But one of the things that she spoke about and said was, even if your voice shakes, like, use it, you know? It's paraphrasing, but...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:00-00:47:01]
Like you have one tool.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:02-00:47:04]
It might be just your voice.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:47:04-00:47:16]
Use it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I have been there before. Second question. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:17-00:47:55]
So if I have to go with a two-legged human being and not say my mare, Farah, the most influential person has definitely been Alexa Linton. I feel like. joining her program in 2020. I had never heard her podcast. I didn't know her from a hole in the wall. I signed up for her program the last minute on a total whim from the advice of someone I had met online in a different space in the equestrian world who recommended it. And that has just been this journey.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:56-00:49:02]
total gateway that has connected me to so many amazing people horse people and non-horse people and really catalyzed my own personal healing journey with my mare and my other horse and connected me to Kate so she's an obvious person for this awesome yeah I think Alexa Litton is kind of a shoe-in for us like she's Yeah, one of my favorite people. I look up to her, like, incredibly and has been very influential in really just, like, opening up an entire new, like... world for me in so many different ways. So I don't want to take Elsie's answer, but Alexa's pretty darn influential. And I would say also the person who introduced me to Alexa, my friend, an amazing course woman, Brittany Lowe, she introduced me.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:49:03-00:49:09]
Awesome. Love that. If you could give a question or one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:11-00:49:21]
Listen to yourself. And ask a lot of questions and find people who are willing to talk to you about those questions.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:25-00:49:33]
Yeah. And I'll say be curious. And not all unsolicited advice is bad advice.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:49:33-00:49:56]
Yeah. Also, too, what you said earlier, Kate, with the motto or favorite saying, I also think is, like, really good advice for equestrians as well, is, like, even if your voice shakes, like, use it anyway. Yeah. Please complete this sentence, final one. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:59-00:50:53]
Just the biggest gift and... Friends. Family, I don't know. I feel for me, horses, especially as I've stepped more and more into myself, are just these incredible creatures that I am so lucky to learn from and grow with and laugh with and love. I just, I love them as the unique individuals they are. And it just feels so, like such a blessing to have them in my life.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:50:53-00:50:57]
What about you, Kait?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:50:58-00:51:05]
Yeah, for me, horses are truly capable of transmuting so much energy.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:51:06-00:51:57]
energy um and for me they really are like a gilded thread that ties us all together yeah it's one of those things where like I feel like this question looks like it's like a relatively simple question and the answer is so loaded um So I love that. I love what each of you said. Yeah, it's just there. They are profound. So going back to Echoscan, where can people find all about the organization and what you have to offer, what you'll be doing in the future and the meetings and all of the things?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:51:58-00:53:49]
So the best place to find us and connect with us right now is on our Instagram page. It's at eq.us underscore can. So Equus can. And if you go to our page, you'll see there is a link to our website. You can also find that by just typing it in online. But it's equuscan.mycanva.site, I believe. And there's a link there. in our Instagram bio. And we really encourage people to check out the website because that's predominantly where we have all of our resources linked. So we took a lot of time to build out a whole page on free Palestine with lots of resources, Instagram pages. You can go and follow for direct information from the ground, from journalists, from people who are doing this work every day. And yeah, YouTube resources to get up to speed, donation links, as well as a section for contacting representatives in Canada and in the U.S. to make your voice heard in a political manner. As well, there is a tab on other current humanitarian issues highlighting the humanitarian crises going on in Sudan and in the Congo currently. And we hope to be able to build that out and continue adding resources as time moves forward. And one of the most important ways to stay connected with us is by joining our email list so that you can get the links to our virtual meetings, which we're going to be hosting bi-monthly. And you can join the email list by clicking the Join the Herd tab through our website.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:53:51-00:54:12]
Awesome. We'll make sure to link everything in the show notes. So the Instagram, the website, those are probably the two of the best things to link. And people can can find everything from there. Yeah. So we'll make sure to include that all in the show notes. If you're interested, just scroll down and you can find it all. Is there anything else either of you want to add before we wrap up?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:13-00:54:29]
Well, I think we want to hear Danielle's answer to that one. we want to know some challenges and some obstacles that you perceive either for yourself or for those around you in activism.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:54:30-00:55:59]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So first of all, great question. Um, for me personally, I, um, I find that I, uh, It hurts my heart. And so I often will distance myself from things that hurt my heart. I won't watch the videos. I don't want to read too much into things because it hurts. And so I don't know if you have any advice on that, apart from the fact that it's like it hurts your heart, but how does it feel to others? Are you willing to just ignore it? But that's what I find is an obstacle for me where it's almost like you want to, it's a visceral reaction to just want to turn away. And I know that that is probably something that affects many other people as well. And I also am well aware of the fact that it's like, You turning your head is not helping anybody except keeping yourself feeling safe. But in complete honesty, that's the thing that I find affects me the most.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:01-00:57:37]
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for being really honest with that. I think that's going to land for a lot of people. The thing that comes to mind for me is... asking yourself if you can carve out intentional time to feel because our society is not set up to allow that. If you're feeling bowled over, heartbroken, you're not able to show up on a client call and quote unquote do your best. It's all baked into the systems at play and There's so many layers to that, but I think you pausing and creating an intentional time where you allow yourself, even if it doesn't mean... Even if you're not going and consuming more media on the subject matter, but just allowing yourself to feel, wow, that... makes me so upset it fills me with rage it fills me with these feelings that I don't know where to put them because they're actually so big and I've never been taught or guided or encouraged to have these feelings or have a place for them to go because they counter the conditioning that we're all supposed to put our heads down and get our work done. And so carving out that time to feel is radical in and of itself.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:57:37-00:58:47]
And I think it will allow you to, when you are able to feel those feelings and move through them and hopefully have some support in which community members who also are opening themselves up to feeling you're able to to get the information from those feelings that are then going to motivate and drive you to funneling that information into action yeah yeah absolutely and and like you had said i feel as though um That's that's a response that a lot of people have. And then that's why I feel as though your organization and the community that you're building is so helpful as well, because like you said, it it gives people that safe space to go and and connect with others who may be feeling it as well and then figure out where to go from there with it. So, yeah, thank you. And thank you for that question, too. It's something that I. It gets you thinking.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:58:48-00:59:27]
and like doesn't shy away from like it's a it's a tough question so thank you for asking me that thanks for answering I think it's a tough situation it's important to ask tough questions and I think it's important to hear the tough answers too I think that like the human thing to do is for your heart to hurt when you're seeing suffering and hurt, that is a very human reaction. So it's a, for us to like on a whole, I think we've kind of been led away from feeling that and connecting with that in ourselves. And I think that's not the healthy thing for anyone. Hmm.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:59:29-00:59:50]
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both so much for coming on the podcast. This was amazing. I'm just so glad to have you on here and to be speaking about these important issues. So this was a pleasure for me to be speaking about these tough conversations and bringing more light and awareness to them. So thank you both for being here.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:51-00:59:52]
Thank you for having us now.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:59:53-00:59:53]
Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 3]
[00:59:56-01:00:29]
Thank you. Thank you. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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