#63 Horse Listening with Cheryl Eriksen

[SPEAKER 2]
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On this episode, we're talking with Cheryl Eriksen, an author, blogger, horse midwife, and eternal student of the horse-human connection.

[SPEAKER 1]
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The problem with assigning a judgment to a behavior is that it doesn't allow for that curiosity to know what the horse is actually communicating. So if I decide I know what they're saying without actually paying attention, you miss a lot.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Cheryl Eriksen has spent decades as an equine professional and extensively studied equine behavior and how it is influenced by what the human brings to the relationship. Through her work in the field of equine-assisted psychotherapy and learning, Cheryl has seen and experienced firsthand the healing power of the horse-human relationship. Her books and her blog explore this powerful relationship. Cheryl has also developed and taught continuing education courses on equine assisted psychotherapy as a viable adjunct therapy and on trauma resiliency and horse sense for social workers. Today, we're going to be discussing her latest book, an interactive journal for equestrians called Horse Listening. Let's get started. Cheryl, welcome back to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to speak to you again. And for those who may not have listened to the previous episode, you were on our podcast in January, which it's so crazy. Like time is such a weird concept to me. Sometimes I'm like, oh, that feels like yesterday. And other times it's like, oh my gosh, that feels like so long ago. And so I'd love to know over this past year, So what's been up? What's changed for you?

[SPEAKER 1]
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All right. Well, hey, and thank you for having me. It's really great to be back. And the whole time concept is very, very odd and a weird thing. But this year has just it's been interesting with some new experiences for me as I kind of am branching out and trying to do more things. And I've had some great opportunities to do some speaking engagements, talking about horses and mental health, which is one of the subjects that I write and talk about a lot. a really great year of opportunities of meeting people and making connections. And it's been pretty excited, which makes me excited about the future.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I love that. I love too, that you, that you're speaking on stages and stuff too, about such an important topic. I think horses and mental health just go hand in hand so beautifully together. So I love that you're, you're creating a space within this, within that realm, you know, and bringing a voice to it. So that's awesome.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, thank you. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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You're here today to talk about your latest book, Horse Listening, which is an interactive journal. And so previously when you were on, we discussed two books, one being Follow Me Friend and the other is I've Never Been to Me. Can you tell us about your latest book, Horse Listening?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yes. Yeah. Horse listening is a project that I'm super, super excited about. And it is a the first of its kind for horse people that I'm aware of. It's a hybrid book and journal. So the beginning part talks about horse behavior and communication and what the person brings to that part of the relationship, how that can affect those things in the horse. The second part is a 90-day journal for the time that you spend with your horse and looking at the interactions and how the energy that you're bringing to your horse and what you are bringing to your horse affects them and how it affects the way that you are working together. What's neat about it being a journal is it's got a before and after for each time you spend with your horse. And it's a way to kind of even you can track and see what kinds of things are influencing you, what kinds of things are influencing your horse and begin to manage those things as you're going forward. It's something to look back on its own.

[SPEAKER 2]
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The before and after is such a cool concept as well, because, yeah, it's one thing to look at. OK, can I check in on my energy before I go see my horse or how do I feel after? But to be able to have that comparison of the before and the after is a really neat perspective.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, it was something, and when I first started into this, I wasn't sure that was how it was going to go. But when you get an idea that just kind of grows organically like this one did, and that's what it turned into, just that idea of that comparison, because we don't always remember what we're bringing to the horse. And the way I designed it, I didn't want it to be a daunting thing. They can very quickly be filled out. the before and after forms, but there's just little prompts in each one of those to help you kind of set your energy, but also be aware of what you're bringing and then reflect on that afterwards.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Very cool. I love it. There is an excerpt that says horse listening is about being curious about horse behavior and also being self-aware about your own energy and what you bring to the horse. So what inspired you to create an interactive journal like this?

[SPEAKER 1]
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It started as actually that's something completely different. Um, but what it turned into is, is what it is. But the inspiration came from my own relationship with my horse and kind of the journey that we had been on together. Um, my horse Farletta, who I talk about in my first two books, she, uh, What happened with her is her behavior towards me changed when I was holding something inside of me and not letting go. And what it was, and this is what I write about in my first two books, is a trauma, a deep embedded trauma that I didn't have a conscious memory of. But you still hold that. that energy of that trauma, it's still in there. It lives in your cells. It's not just something that's in your mind. So even though I didn't know what was going on in my mind, you know, I didn't have a memory, but my body, it remembered and it still would react. So I had PTSD from this trauma and had all these behaviors that went with it, but didn't understand them. So I hid everything and pushed that down and, And that, and I'm doing air quotes here, worked as in I allowed me to sort of move forward with my life for a number of years until I got this horse, Farletta, and she died. was unwilling maybe to sit with that energy. She did for a while and then she wouldn't. And her behavior, as I said, changed towards me. And it was just because we had been so close prior to When these memories started coming back, I knew there was something up with her. I knew, you know, I could fix her behavior. I could correct her. I knew how to do that. You know, she was well, well trained, but I didn't want to because I didn't understand why she was acting the way that she was. So she made me curious about her behavior, but also about what was going on between us. And it was really that was the beginning of a 16 year journey of her just being that barometer of my internal struggle and healing in her own way. I often would say she could reach inside and touch the broken parts and and bring them to the surface so that I could deal with them and heal. and heal. And that, that's where this came from. That's where horse listening came from is because of that relationship. And I realized, you know, I had this and I had that for myself, but I feel that with horses and there, there's so much they can teach us. And I think this is part of Farletta's legacy is, um, Bringing this book to more horses and people so that they can experience what we experienced.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I love, love, love the term you use that there are barometer, which is amazing. Such a lovely expression of it, you know, to be able to look in on ourselves, whether we want to or not, in some cases. I love that. I love what you said. So, Cheryl, why is classifying a horse's behavior as either, quote, good or bad problematic?

[SPEAKER 1]
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And the good or bad assignment to a behavior is it's a human thing, right? And it's not an animal thing. Behavior is communication. And that's the big thing that I like to drive home. is if I had, for example, classified Farletta's behavior change as bad and tried to correct it and fix it, I would have missed the entire message. I would have continued on for as long as I could have. The problem – With assigning a judgment to a behavior is that it doesn't allow for that curiosity to know what the horse is actually communicating. So if I decide I know what they're saying without actually paying attention. Yeah. You miss a lot.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Curiosity is a large part of horse listening. And so why do you think curiosity is important as a horse horse person? And then I mean, obviously, it's also important as a human. So why do you think why do you think curiosity is so important?

[SPEAKER 1]
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I think a lot of that, the curiosity aspect has to do with eliminating the judgment. So if I am truly curious about what is happening with the horse, instead of deciding that, okay, that horse bucked because it's mean or because it's badly behaved. But instead I thought, what if I think about that horse bucked? Why would that horse buck? Is that normal for that horse? Why is that normal for that horse? Is it abnormal for that horse? Why is it abnormal for that horse? But trying to get down to that understanding for the reason, because, again, with that idea that the horses, they don't buck just to be mean. You know, it's, as I said, and I like to say over and over again, behavior is communication. And that is part of, you know, horses, they communicate with body language. They communicate with their voices a little bit. They, you know, we talk about that sort of stuff, especially the body language aspect. It's talked about a lot. You know, how can I influence my horse using my body language? And what we don't talk about is that the horse's reactions change. to everything we do it's all communication they're telling us when we're putting on too much pressure they're telling us when we're asking them to do something they're not comfortable with and a lot of times those things look like bad behavior and so we say ah we're going to change that behavior we're going to fix that behavior so what we're doing is we're putting in effect duct tape over our horse's quote-unquote mouth right I don't like what you're telling me. I want you to do what I want you to say, what I want you to, but I don't want you to tell me why you don't want to do it. And that is not being a partner, right? We talk a lot about wanting a true partnership with our horses or a relationship. But what we're really doing in a lot of cases is it's how we're trained. It's how I was trained in horses is we're we're dictating. We're like, I need you to do this for me. I need you to do it now. And I can ask you gently and we can be as natural as we want to be. But if you're telling me no and I'm not listening, then we're not partners. We're just not. That's just not how it works. And that is something that's been difficult for me to come to. I spent 30 whatever years training horses and it's been just since, I don't know, maybe the last 10 years, 8, 10 years, and especially the time with Farletta that I was like, wait a minute, there's something different. And, yeah, so that curiosity is significant, and it goes beyond that. It goes to people also, which is something I learned in my time when I was doing equine-assisted therapy, and we – talk a lot with the client and that client interactions and not being judgmental of what we're seeing and hearing from the client. And that would extend beyond your client and beyond just into everything, every aspect of working with people or being around people. You know, I can look at somebody and make all kinds of judgments about them based on what they're wearing or what they're saying or what they're doing or what they believe in. But I don't actually know anything unless I get curious and talk to them. And I think a lot of times we just kind of skate over that curious part and like, ah, I know what you are. And I treat you, treat the person like that. And then you get what you project back, right? They're going to give you what you're projecting, even if you don't intend for them to. And the horse is going to do the same thing. If you're a bad horse, you're going to act like a bad horse, right? So, quote unquote.

[SPEAKER 2]
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What I love, too, about horse listening, with it being that interactive journal, so you have the opportunity to answer questions, you have the opportunity to um you know write your own experiences before and after like we had mentioned is it gives you the opportunity to be curious about yourself as well so you know like yes curious about your horse and you know curious to others um so like anything externally but it also gives you such an opportunity to be curious about yourself like well why am I feeling that way and where is this coming from You know, like those sorts of things, which which is so valuable, not only as a horse person, but as a human. So it's just it's so wonderful that you give readers the opportunity within it, with it being an interactive journal to like, OK, here's, you know, this this portion of the book that's dedicated to learning. And then here's this portion of the book that's kind of dedicated to discovering, if that makes sense.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Absolutely. And I think that's what's so interesting about, you know, what I realized, like what I started out with was, you know, a book about horse listening and about listening to your horse. Right. That's what it's called, of course. But what I ended up with is a book. It's about your horse, but it's kind of about you. too because so much of what our horses are responding to is what we're bringing to them so sometimes like again it's and we I go over this in the book you know the behavior is about something external something the horse is feeling or seeing or experiencing or however that may be and sometimes it's about what you are bringing into the barn and that's that's not that's not a negative that's not a bad thing that's that's just what we are that's what people are you know we bring our our sadness we bring our thoughts we bring our stresses from work or from home and some horses are more sensitive to that than others and in my case farletta was extremely sensitive to that but uh Being aware of what you're bringing in, that's even part of the tracking part. Like, I came in today with this sadness or this on my mind, and this is what response I got from the horse this day. And seeing those patterns is significant, but it's... Extending that curiosity to yourself is important. And just having that awareness is part of that journey of growth and being a good partner. That is something that is significant in a partnership is knowing yourself.

[SPEAKER 2]
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what you're asking the horse to carry also because you're not just carrying it you're a partnership you're carrying it together yeah absolutely it's like carrying me physically and also carry me energetically and then sometimes that like that can be a lot to ask it can be yeah and sometimes I think that's where some of our horse behaviors come from that we see is it's just It's just a lot for them.

[SPEAKER 1]
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And some are better equipped and some have learned to shut down. And it's just by having that self-awareness is significant.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, absolutely. The other portion of the book, so we talked about the curiosity aspect of the book, but there's also fear and gratitude that's embedded in the book as well related to the horse-human interactions. Can you talk a little bit about the purpose or the impact of fear within horse listening as well as gratitude? Sure.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, so I talk about the idea of fear energy and love energy. And, of course, gratitude is part of that love energy. And the idea of there being two emotions is the fear and the love, and everything can fall under those two emotions. So with the fear energy, we've got the fear, we've got anger, we've got judgment, we've got fear. those sort of negative aspects and the love energy is the gratitude and that appreciation that curiosity all of those things so the two the fear energy and the love energy aren't opposites you don't want to look at them as opposites as much as some two things that can't exist in the same place at the same time so when you when you are on that fear energy that anger, that whatever, that judgment, you can't also have the love energy. Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, it's that aspect of if we bring the gratitude, the love energy to the horse or to the people or just carry that in our lives, then we have that. It will grow and attract more of that, and that is a more comfortable way energy for the horse to be in, I believe, is a more responsive, that fear energy is damaging. It's the fear that brings us, that makes us judgmental about the horse, that makes us judgmental about ourselves. It's comparison. It's all these things that we kind of get stuck in our heads that are really, they're damaging to our spirit, to ourselves. And don't help our relationship with the horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. So it's like if you're feeling what would be perceived as a negative emotion, such as fear, anger, like you had mentioned, to bring in a sense of gratitude, love, laughter, you know, all of those things. And it kind of If you imagine like the negative energy is as one thing and then the other one is growing like the love, the gratitude is growing and it kind of takes over the other one. Is that correct? Is that a good visual?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, it or take over or even a pushing, pushing away. Right. So you can't that fear energy can't be in the same space with the love energy and vice versa. So if I'm hanging on to that, that judgment, that negativity, that hate, that anger, that fear, all of those things, the love energy can't fit in there.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Absolutely, yeah, gotcha.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So when I focus on the love energy, which is what the book talks about and also how the journal pages are set up, then I'm automatically setting myself up to bring that to the horse. And that, again, brings in that awareness part, that awareness aspect on yourself of how much of that fear energy am I bringing, you know, and am I carrying with me every day? And so think of it almost as – a way of opening yourself to more curiosity, more possibility, more connection, more all of those things that you want to have with your horse, that partnership, that relationship, that special connection. When you focus on the love energy and the fear energy gets smaller, gets pushed away, you can have more of those things, more of that relationship, partnership, connection. Yeah. all the words.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:05-00:22:30]
So my next question for you is what do you hope readers take away from horse listening? But as I, as I was listening to you say that I was like, ah, that's it. That's a takeaway right there is, you know, to be able to bring in, like you had mentioned, like more love, gratitude, connection, partnership, curiosity, all of the things to the relationship. But is there anything else you hope readers take away from this book?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:31-00:24:18]
what I really am hoping is that people, the readers will begin to look at their horses differently and the possibilities of what a horse human relationship can be. And, you know, we, as horse people, we tend to have the horses because we want to do something with them. We love the horses, but we want to ride them. We want to show them and train them and, race them or whatever those things are we're going to do. And I'm not, you know, I'm not going to say those are bad things. Those, I mean, those are things that we do and that's what the horses do. And a lot of the horses enjoy it. But I think the idea of looking at the horse beyond that, what can the horse teach me? What can the horse contribute to the relationship? As a lot of times, as I said before, we don't really think about the horse's contribution. It's what can the horse do for me? And, you know, when I want to teach the horse something new or I want to have a goal with the horse, let's say, you know, I used to show dressage and I want to go to this dressage show and maybe win the overall championship. And that's that's cool. I want to do that. But what that's important to me, but what's important to my horse is that they feel safe, that they feel heard, that they feel comfortable, that they're being managed in a way that they feel those things so we can have both of those things. I can do the dressage competition and still have those things. Does that make sense? So I think just being open to that, what does the horse need from me so we can do this together versus what can I impose upon the horse so that they do what I want them to do?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I kind of have a little bit of a sneak peek into this from our discussion before we started recording. But for everybody listening, do you have anything else in the works or any plans for the future?

[SPEAKER 1]
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I do. I do. I am very excited because I've been keeping this a secret forever.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Oh, I mean, don't spill your secrets if you don't want to.

[SPEAKER 1]
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It's time. It's time. It's time. So because I wasn't ready, but I have a publisher and it's ready. We're going to be out next year. It's a book about the famous racehorse Greyhound. He was a trotter. A harness racing horse, a trotter from the 1930s. And because I write, it is a biography, but because I write about that horse-human connection, what was interesting to me in his story was how the people in his life were affected by him.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I love that. I love that so much. I can't wait to read it.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I'm just I'm thinking of all of the other like just those iconic horse stories that touch people, whether they're horse people or they're not. There's so many people that aren't horse people that love reading the books like that and and feeling the magic of horses without without having to be around them themselves. And so that's super exciting. I'm really excited for you, Cheryl.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Thank you. Thank you. It's been bringing this story has just I've felt a very intense urgency. Like this is the time. This is his time to bring this story out. And so it's I'm excited. I can't wait.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I love that.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I have been asking a lot of people this question, so I would love to ask it to you as well before we begin to wrap up. What is your hope for the future of the equestrian industry?

[SPEAKER 1]
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My hope is that we start looking at our horses differently, looking as an industry, listening, um, being curious, but also questioning ourselves and thinking of the horse's role differently, um, than we do now. And I, I don't want to be generalizing because there's a lot of people who, you know, there's a whole range of the way that people think about, you know, their horses, but, um, My thing lately in the last couple of years has been the importance of thinking of the horse's role as a teacher. And that maybe that is what they're here for even more than what they can do for us. What can they teach us? And for me, when I opened myself to that possibility, everything changed. changed for me in my horse life, but even for me in my own life. Did that make sense?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:27:29-00:28:07]
Absolutely. I love that. And I completely agree. I completely agree. Cheryl, you may remember almost a year ago. So it's October right now when we're recording. And like I mentioned, the last time that we spoke and we recorded, it was January. So it's almost been a year and we asked, I asked you four rapid fire questions and I'm going to ask you the exact same ones. I'm not going to go back and compare your answers to see if they're the same or not, but well, let's just, you know, maybe something's changed for you. So I'd love to ask the four rapid fire questions again, whenever you're ready.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:28:07-00:28:09]
Go for it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:09-00:28:13]
All right. The first one, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
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I would say the one I say a lot to myself is that behavior is communication. I share that a lot with people, too. So behavior is communication.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:29-00:28:34]
That's a good one. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:28:36-00:29:07]
That is a tough question because I've been blessed to have a lot of people through my life with each stage of my journey. So I can't narrow it to one person necessarily, but certainly my recent work with Linda Tellington-Jones has made a big difference, and I stole the behaviorist communication line from her. So that is something that Linda helped me really drive home that point for me. She's amazing. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:08-00:29:10]
We are big fans of Linda over here at WeHorse.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:11-00:29:39]
Yeah. Yeah. And then second influence, another big influence obviously has been Farletta. I cannot imagine how different my life would be if I hadn't had her and the things that she taught me were just like, yeah, I, there's no words. It's just when I could learn to see her as a teacher and, was life-changing, life-altering.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:42-00:29:45]
If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:47-00:29:49]
That's easy. Be curious.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:29:49-00:30:13]
Good one, yeah. And the final rapid-fire question. Please complete this sentence. For me, horses are... Love. Awesome. Cheryl, where can people find you? How can they connect with you? How can they get Horse Listening, your other books, all the things?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:14-00:30:33]
All the things. So I am, you can find me on my website, which is followmefriendbook.com. And I'm on Facebook under my name, Cheryl L. Erickson. And I am trying to do Instagram also under my name, but the social medias, those are hard.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Honestly, they change so much their heart for everybody.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:38-00:30:55]
I don't understand the algorithm, whatever. Anyway, so go give me a heart over there because I'll feel happy then. But no, seriously, the books, of course, are on Amazon. And you can also find them through to Borton Equine Books website.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:56-00:31:06]
Awesome. We're going to link everything in the show notes for you as well so that people can just scroll down a little bit and find the links, find your books and find you.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:08-00:31:09]
Super. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Thank you so much for joining me again, Cheryl. I love, love, love hearing about your books, about the things that you're learning, about the way that horses are impacting you and those around you and then how you're taking that and teaching it to others. So thank you so much for being here again.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:28-00:31:33]
Absolutely. Thank you for having me back. I really appreciate it. And it's been very nice talking with you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:36-00:32:09]
in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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