#72 Approaching hoofcare from a holistic perspective with Beccy Smith

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:05-00:00:25]
We could talk about products to put on the horse's hoof and all of that, but actually the autonomic nervous system, which is really key in getting nutrition in and out of the hoof and in promoting healthy movement, is key.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:26-00:01:35]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Beccy Smith is an independent equine podiatrist and barefoot trimmer, as well as an equine body worker, consultant, therapist, wellness coach, equine facilitated learning practitioner, Reiki master, and healer. Beccy has over 30 years of equine industry professional experience and is a highly proficient and respected holistic equine podiatrist. She's also qualified in advanced equine podiatry and her bodywork qualifications include being a senar cosmetic therapist, an equine sports massage therapist, a heart math coach, and Lazarus nerve release method practitioner. And she considers herself an independent lifelong people of the horse. There's so much to discuss with this episode, and I'm really excited to bring this topic to the podcast. So let's get started. Beccy, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I am so excited to chat with you. This has been a long time coming. We've known each other in other areas and I was like, oh, I want to get her on the podcast so bad. So I'm really excited to speak with you and welcome.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:01:35-00:01:43]
Oh, perfect timing. Yeah, I look forward to it too. And it's such an honor to be asked to be a part of your wonderful journey that you're sharing with everybody.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:44-00:02:18]
Awesome. Awesome. So your business is called Holistic Equine. And I'm absolutely obsessed with it. I'm obsessed with everything that you offer. I think it is revolutionary in the equine industry. And it sucks that you're over in the UK and I'm over here in Canada because I'm like, bring more of this, spill this over here to all of the areas of North America and beyond. Yeah. So the holistic approach to horses wellness, what inspired you to combine all of the methodologies and services that you offer?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:02:18-00:05:27]
That's a great question. I feel like it came about as a result of my own health challenges. So throughout my life, I have had health challenges that have, some of it's been involved with trauma that I've experienced, and some of it just seems to be the things that I'm working through in this lifetime. And I don't believe that life is coincidental. I believe that there is some bigger plan for all of us going on in the you know, can appreciate all of that. So that kind of gives you a backdrop to my understanding and my kind of spiritual life. So as I was working through some of my health challenges, I would find that the usual things that worked for other people didn't work for me. And I was forced to do lots of research and try lots of alternative therapies and really find ways to heal. And my journey has been really, really up and down in terms of finding just really energy to do what it is I'm driven to do. So there's been a lot of hurdles on the way to get me to this part of my life that I've overcome because of these little segues into spiritualism and alternative healing and everything from flip and hack from Gene Keys and looking at sort of our astrological blueprint to crystals to sound healing to you name it I have literally tried the lot and at the same time I was meeting horses that were either in my care or clients horses that also had health challenges and so I was sort of finding that that we could Look at using other therapies to support that horse's well-being and it seemed to work. And I thought, OK, so we can use conventional therapy, but also we can use other therapies as well and support our well-being through integrating therapy. all aspects of self so that's basically where I'm coming from in terms of using things like heart math to regulate ourselves to facilitate core regulation in horses to using you know handheld devices and and things to help facilitate positive changes in the horse's neuromuscular system and so on and so on and so on and yeah it's just turned into this beautiful organic mishmash of stuff that I can use within a session to support a horse finding balance and by product, usually the owner's finding balance as well.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:05:27-00:06:15]
So it's this beautiful synergy of tools that I can pull together pull pull on and utilize in order to have this really integrated experience absolutely I just think it's all so cool and it's so needed and I don't have this written down as a question but it just it it came through as you were speaking what do you say when the people that hire you or may say something like I just need you to fix my horse's feet and you're like oh but there's so much more Well, I've only ever had one customer who said that to me and they ended up firing me because I just couldn't I just couldn't go along with what it is. they wanted from me.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:06:15-00:07:38]
They were like, don't look at anything else. Don't look at the horse's back. Don't look at the pain in the body. All I want you to do is to come and trim the hooves. And I was like, whoa, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. It felt like my tools had just been taken from me and I wasn't allowed to draw attention to the pain in the horse. And all I can really say from that was, that particular circumstance and the particular owner just couldn't look at the horse's pain. And I was like, do you know what? I have to step away because I can't help this person until they're ready for me to help them and their horse. So in the end, I just explained that in the best way that I could. And they said, that's fine. We're just going to go with the farrier. And I had to walk away. I had to walk away. So that's kind of how I would approach it. I would explain that everything impacts everything and that let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. Let's have a conversation. Why you don't want me to look at these other things and you don't want attention drawn to those other things and seeing what's really the feeling beneath the feeling there. What's really going on here?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:07:41-00:08:26]
When you work with clients, I'm just taking this all in, by the way. I just think it's all so cool. When you work with clients, in the very beginning, you do an equine podiatry. So that includes a holistic review of the horse. So I'm going to list off the different things. So it includes its history, its living environment, its workload. It's general health. It's confirmation. It's posture, which for those listening, confirmation and posture are two different things. And of course, how all of those things affect the hooves. Can we go through each one and have you explain, you know, as much or as little detail as you'd like, how each of those things affect the hooves?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:08:28-00:08:43]
Yeah, another really good question. It's probably easy to start back to front. OK. Start with the horse today in front of us. So it's a little like, do you know what physiological sequencing is?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:08:44-00:08:44]
No, I don't.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:08:45-00:20:09]
OK, so this is looking at the things that impact physiology over time. So it helps to explain how a disease comes to be how it is. What are the things that have impacted the manifestation of that disease state? So if we take, for example, and I know this doesn't sound like I'm answering your question, but in a roundabout way, I am. If we take, for example, an X-ray of a horse's hoof and we have changes to the bone. In terms of physiological sequencing, that's the last structure to be affected by pathological forces. So the first thing to be impacted would be soft tissues. So nerve, blood, lymph, and then the softer connective tissues, fascia, the things that the superhighways run through. And then the next thing to be impacted would be more dynamic tissues like cartilage, ligament, muscles that they change in response to forces. And then the next thing along this chain of event would be static tissues like bone. So bone would be the last thing probably to change over time as a result of chronic pathological forces, things that create pathology. So what I'm interested in is what are the things that have shaped a horse? And can we look at them in terms of physiological sequencing and the various tissues that have been affected? So do we have a history of a horse with bony changes somewhere in the body, be it the spine, the hock, the stifle, the hoof? And what else can we tell by looking at that horse's posture and confirmation by how long this has been going on? So do we have muscles that are bigger or smaller as a result of all of these changes coming in? So that's a very gross way of looking at the history of a horse, right? It's health history. But how has the environment shaped that horse? And where's the evidence for the stimulus? So I want to understand what can this horse tell us? Because the horse can't speak. It can't say anything. You know what? I was hammered as a four, five, six year old. I didn't have good foot health at the time. And then it hurt, first of all, the soft tissues in the hooves and then in the tendons. And then over time, there was an energy management problem. And now the bones have changed shape as a result of that. It can't say that. So we have to dig deep and look. So I want a full veterinary history. I want to see the x-rays. I want to see the MRIs and what the vets had to say even if I can't understand some of these diagnostics I want to try right do we have confirmed diagnoses and what hasn't been looked at so oftentimes there'll be something's been looked at in a horse because that's why they found me because they have a problem but somewhere else on the horse hasn't been looked at typically hind tooth balance so To answer your question, I want to look first of all at the posture of the horse. How the horse is standing and the development of the horse tell us about how long something's been going on and what might be going on. So usually there are postural changes when there's been chronic or acute imbalances or a loss of function in the horse's hoof. So the horse's hoof is really important for what we call proprioception, which is the way in which the horse's body responds to internal but predominantly external stimulus. So the point of contact with the ground is the horse's hoof. So the structures in the hoof are designed to receive pressure internally. and from information from the horse's environment. And then we have mechanoreceptors and nociceptors responding to what's going on with the horse's environment and then tissues further up the body. So the horse is trying to all the time avoid excessive wear and tear and stand and move with the most biomechanical efficiency that it can. So if we have compensated posture and the limbs not perpendicular, we have to ask why. So then we can look at confirmation. How is that driving posture and how is that influencing hoof health? So what I typically look at is the limb bones. How are they orientated to the body and to one another? And is that impacted by posture above the limb? Or is it now set in stone that this is the way the limbs are? So that's going to shape both the forces coming down from the foot from above the horse, from how the horse stands and moves, but also how the forces are received from the ground called the ground reaction forces on how that shapes the hoof proprioception and feeds into posture. So to put it in very simple terms, especially when considering hoof health, It's the conformation typically of the digit bones that I think is largely misunderstood in the industry. So a horse with a short, stocky paston typically needs an upright, stockier hoof. That's not always the case, of course, but that's a very common finding. But Quite often, the way that horses typically are trimmed, not just in the UK, but from what I understand in America and other countries, we tend to trim or wear the hoof into an imbalance that we'll probably discuss, more of a long toe and a shorter under on heel. And this is more catastrophic to horses with a conformation that suits a more upright hoof. So that's just one way in which we need to be considering confirmation in terms of size of pedal bones, orientation of the pedal bones in relation to the pastern that then is driving how the horse stands and moves and develops above. so general health we want to know are there any underlying genetic conditions that could be driving postural problems physiological problems and impacting hoof health so for example PSSM PPID or Cushing's equine Cushing's equine metabolic syndrome or insulin dysregulation those are the most common ones that seem to impact hoof health and of course then there are sort of non-genetic conditions, viruses and things that are impacting the musculoskeletal system, metabolism, digestion and these sorts of things that again impacting nutrition to the hoof and impacting how the tissues respond to that horse's unique metabolism. And then we want to look at workloads. The workload of the horse, again, I'm thinking physiological sequencing. What has been the forces on this horse? How appropriate are they for driving health or driving pathology? And I think this is a very misunderstood aspect of the industry in that we need to be working horses to the level of the foot health, the posture and the development. But quite often it's being exceeded. And if we work horses beyond their capabilities at that time, rather than that stress positively driving healthy adaptations, quite often it's actually driving unhealthy physiological sequencing towards pathology. So I want to know what kind of work that horse has done and what the body can tell us about how it has responded to that workload over time. And of course, when that workload started. So was the horse started prior to maturation? And is the horse a gelding or a mare? And how does that influence how the horse might respond to the work that's being asked of it? Some of these things we won't know, of course. So not everybody has a full history of their horse from birth or even pre-birth to where they find themselves now. So we've got to be investigative journalists in effect and try and figure out what might be going on. living habitat of course is very very influential in equine welfare so a lot of these questions are actually coming from a kind of five domain model of equine welfare where we can consider the influence on the animal's welfare state through assessment of environment health behavioural interactions but also nutrition so we want to know what all of that has on that individual animal's lived experience in its mental domain and in the mind of the horse and how that then affects that horse's behaviour. So the living habitat can, and again, obviously alongside that, the domains and how we might assess welfare is really important to me. And I think, again, where the industry is kind of missing a little bit of focus on how we might make decisions for horses in terms of collecting information and then finding a plan to help promote wellbeing in a horse. So what I'm considering in all of these questions is how can I objectively assess welfare states? So for that, from my perspective, we need to be considering physiological parameters, behavioural parameters, and of course, postural parameters. So within my assessment, I would use objective assessment of the horse's posture and mapping the posture to track changes and also the hoof, but also behaviour as well. And I try to make that as objective as possible. And I would use things like pain ethograms, equine pain ethograms, where we're objectively looking at behaviour and trying to see what might be going on in that horse's experience. Is it in pain? Where is the autonomic nervous system health in an individual horse that can give us an indication of the horse's mind, emotional welfare? And of course, history. What has gone on for this horse? What are these horses pain points? What are what trauma might this individual horse have experienced? And of course, weaning is a potential area for trauma as is birth. So a lot of these things owners don't know about. So we just have to extrapolate as much information as we can from the horse in front of us, not always forgetting that all the history in the world doesn't change what we're looking at, the horse in front of us, and bring it all down to the level of the horse and try and objectively assess and understand that horse's subjective experience, but using objectivity backed by science as much as we can.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:20:12-00:21:47]
I am fascinated and in awe and hold such reverence to what you do and how you offer it. And as I'm sitting here listening to everything that you're saying and taking it all in, I want to let everybody know just to make sure that I don't forget when we get to the end. And even though I'm sure I won't forget, I still want to add it in. Becky has a lot of learning resources on her website as well. So for those listening who might be thinking, oh, my gosh, I want to learn more about this or I want to speak to my furrier about these things. Or if you're a hoof care professional and you're listening and you're thinking, I want to learn even more about this to bring it to my clients. Becky has a variety of resources, live webinars, informational blog posts and articles, a ton of things on her website, which will, of course, link in the show notes for people to learn more, because I really think this is. a revolution in the industry. I see the industry like trending toward this already. And I just, I want us to go even more in this direction so that it doesn't become, or it doesn't seem like it's a revolution. It just seems like it is, you know, like it's just the way that people approach horse care and wellness and the husbandry of horses. I don't know why that's the word. I said it the other day, I was like horse husbandry. And I was like, why do we call it that? But anyways, it's like the care and the management of our horses. Um, yeah, I just, I just, I think it's so cool and I'm so grateful that you are doing this in the industry.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:49-00:24:11]
Oh, that's so nice of you to say. Yeah, I'm really passionate about it, as you can tell. And yeah, I really just want us to do better by bringing it all back to objectively assessing horses, which takes so much sting out of the egotistical arguments. I mean, even just taking it right down to the hoof care industry. You could use this for any sector, whether it's dressage or whatever, breeding, whatever. If we can just take it all down to the level of the horse in front of us and go, right, rather than us argue about whether or not shoe is better than barefoot, why don't we just look at the horse and assess what's in front of us and come up with a plan to help the individual horse and then objectively track it going forward? And then we can see, actually, this suited this horse or it didn't. And we need to make a different plan. So, yeah, that's kind of my approach and how I would absolutely adore the industry to consider moving forward. I mean, I don't know if you're aware of what's going on in the UK, but there is a lot of chatter at the moment about regulating the barefoot industry. And I'm like, yeah, I welcome that because it's not regulated at the moment. Farriery is regulated and I have concerns about that, which is a whole different conversation. But currently we have all of this talk about the Farriers Registration Council and other bodies maybe that are trying to bring it all under one umbrella. But that raises a lot of questions about what that looks like. Because there is some quite, this is my opinion, but there is some quite concerning practices going on and trends going on. And vulnerable people are getting caught up in all of this. And I think horses are not benefiting from all of this, which is going on. So on one hand, I'm like, yeah, let's regulate the industry. But on the other hand, I'm like, but what does that look like? So I would love to be a part of any conversations on that in the industry about about how we might approach a framework in which we as hoof care providers might work together for the benefit of the horse rather than individual agendas.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:13-00:24:55]
Absolutely. I want to discuss a little bit about like the horse owners and their role in this, as well as things like communication with your horse care professional and things like that. I'm going to put a pin in that, though, because I do want to come back to one thing that you had mentioned earlier, which is the thing that we often see. And I know I especially one of my horses, it was a big issue for him was the long toes and the underrun heels. Why do you think that's such an issue? Why do you think it's such a trend that that's the way that horses are being trimmed? And then also, why is that an issue? Why is it causing an issue for the horse?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:57-00:24:59]
Wow. You like big questions, don't you?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:59-00:24:60]
Yeah, sorry.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:24:60-00:25:03]
I'm like, tell me all the things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:25:03-00:25:05]
Let's get it all out there.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:25:05-00:33:06]
Right. Okay. So this is the most common problem that I see. each and every day and like most of my webinars are about this one topic because it's so common so and I can only come from my own lived experience from talking to people and looking at what other people are doing so I think the reason why horses have got like this lots of long toe under on heel which I think we should define so this is a dorsal palmar imbalance meaning that there is an imbalance in how the digit bones, which are the last three bones in the horse's limb, which are the two pastern bones and the coffin bone in the hoof, how they are orientated to each other. So ideally, what we want is a relatively straight line through the center of rotation, through the long and the short pasting joint, and then the coffin joint between the short pasting joint, the short pasting bone and the coffin bone. We want them to all sort of line up and then externally that should then create a same angle seen on the lateral view on the horse's dorsal hoof wall. So we should be able to stand back, get on our hands and knees or take a photograph of the horse's hoof and see what we call a straight hoof past an axis. meaning we should be able to take a line through the centre of the horse's paston and continue down to the ground with that angle being the same as the dorsal hoof wall. There shouldn't be a change in angle. What I commonly see in both front hooves and back hooves is that the dorsal wall angle is at a lower angle than the paston. And that's called a broken back who've passed an axis. And that's a strong indicator that we don't have phalangeal. Phalangeal mean failings. P1, P2, P3. We don't have phalangeal alignment. And that's commonly known as a long-taught under-run heel. And there's other ways which we can recognize that just by looking at certain relationships, such as the height of the toe from the hairline to the ground versus the height from the hairline of the heel to the ground. And that should be a ratio of about one in terms of heel height to 1.6 to two times taller than at the toe does that make sense so there should be a relationship between the height of the toe versus the height of the heel but in a horse with a dorsal palmar imbalance and a lack of phalangeal alignment or a broken back who've passed an axis typically there is a taller toe to heel ratio so that's telling me that we have a shorter heel than what we should have in relation to the toe And the other parameter that we can look at to help identify this condition is if we look at the coronet band from the side view again, from the hairline of the toe to the hairline at the heel. If we come about 25 percent down the length of the hairline and then drop a straight line to the ground, this is called the point of balance. Now, at that point on the ground, there should be in an ideal, healthy, non-distorted hoof. 50% toe length forward at this point and 50% of the hoof behind at this point. So, in other words, the hoof on the ground, the ground surface of the hoof, should be equidistant forward and backwards of this point. In a horse with a long, tall, low heel, broken back, hoof past an axis, there is typically more toe or more ratio of toe on the ground forward at this point than there is behind. So it should be 50-50 base split in ideal equilibrium balanced hoof. So if we have a longer toe and a lower heel, we've probably got a lack of ideal phalangeal alignment. Now, how does it get like that? There's a few ways it gets like that. We can have intrinsic or internal loss of metabolism or homeostasis, whereby something happens in the horse's metabolism that changes the property of cartilage and we can have portal failure. In other words, the angle of the pedal bone in relation to P2 and P1 can drop backwards. It's like a kind of negative rotation. If you imagine the typical rotation in laminitis, where it moves away from the hoof wall at the front and rotates around its axis in that direction, in a caudal collapse, we can have the pedal bone dropping backwards inside the hoof capsule. And that can happen quite quickly. So that can happen. That can then create a different shape. So if everything's connected to the pedal bone, And we drop the back of the pedal bone down towards the ground. We end up with a longer, lower toe angle. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. So that can happen. But the most common reason for this is man's intervention. So somewhere along the way. And it could be a little bit to just to do with some research that somebody done and the extrapolation of information from it that was maybe misunderstood or limited in its valuation and assessment. Or it could even be to do with study of wild horses where they've looked at the shape of a wild horse at a particular time of year, where it's been a little bit worn at that time of year and it's looked a particular way. And then, you know, man the in man has tried to emulate that, thinking that's the best thing to do. And the horse's hoof has been trimmed unintentionally, of course, into what I would consider a dorsal parlor imbalance. So there is a trend to trim the heels lower to make them look and appear back at the widest part of the frog. However, if we use a distorted, unhealthy tissue as a reference for balance and we trim to that tissue in its current state, we can create further imbalances without understanding really the whole hoof and what's going on. So I think that has been a trend both in barefoot trimming and in farriery, certainly in the UK and from what I understand in other countries, that has led to a plague, if you like, of horses with a broken back who've passed an axis. And the challenge with trimming to this balance or imbalance is that horses, When we don't have correct base proportions and we have a longer toe than heel, what we actually do is push the ground reaction force more towards the heel region of the horse's hoof. And that creates circumstances whereby we have additional wear on the back of the hoof, but also we slow down the rate of growth in the back of the hoof. And it adds wear and tear on firm surfaces. But on soft surfaces, that hoof morphology and balance creates more of a sinking in of the heel into the ground. So now we've got horses where, particularly if they are barefoot, they're wearing more the back of the foot and perpetuating the imbalance. Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:33:06-00:33:30]
It does. And if anybody's listening and they're like, I can't visualize this because they know that like we'll be listening via audio. Becky also has a ton of resources on like mocking up and alignment and things like that on her website as well. So if you're thinking, I can't picture this, go on holisticequine.co.uk and you can see exactly what she means.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:33:32-00:38:52]
Absolutely. We've got many, many posts in the blog and And it's all over our webinars. And also, I do post things on social media on Facebook, too. So you can jump on there and have a scroll down. And I'm sure I'm talking about it at some point. And I probably I frequently include slides from presentations where I'm illustrating the impact of of all of this. And I think you asked me earlier, what's the impact on the horse? Gosh, it's massive. So with this imbalance, where we've got a longer toe versus heel proportion on the ground, we lose equilibrium in the coffin joint and the structures attached to those. So in the back of the coffin bone, coming down the back of the horse's leg, running behind the navicular apparatus and attaching to the underside of the back of the pedal bone, we've got the deep digital flexor tendon and the superficial slightly higher up. And that's responsible for moving the toe and bringing the hoof backwards. And attached to the very top and front of the pedal bone in the horse's hoof, we've got the extensor tendon. And we've also got suspensory ligaments above as well that are keeping things in equilibrium. Now, when we have a long toe, low heel, we've actually got excess pressure coming down onto the flexor tendons. So all the while we've got extra strain going on there, of course, that's feeding back up into the horse's posture through, for example, the superficial retraction fascial chain. So now we've got compensations occurring above in response to those forces where we've got the fascia kind of, it's called fascial drag is probably the proper term, if there is a proper term. where the fascia is now adopting to those forces, and now we've got muscles changing their shape and conformation, in response to those forces. So now we've got things going on in the front end and things going on in the back end that's creating whole horse changes affecting every single tissue in the horse's body. So I talk about this a lot in our webinars and I go through it more of a step by step. But essentially, and I can't prove it, but most horses I see that have got poor foot balance and compensated posture usually have ulcers. And I think what this is doing is several things. First of all, we've got postural changes and tension in tissues that are creating nerve compression at various places throughout the horse's body. So it could be that we've got nerves coming down from the spinal column that are being constricted, affecting visceral function. Or we could have dysfunction in the vagus nerve from physical compression, but also chronic stress. So feeling safe and sound, this is more an experience, isn't it? Horses, we ideally want them to experience what it is to be safe and sound and to feel safe and sound. But if we have a chronic hoof balance issue with compensation and potentially, you know, nociceptors being fired and pain at various places because of the biomechanical changes, then horses can become, I think, chronically stressed. And that can impact the vagus nerve and cause dysfunction along the vagus nerve and start impacting things like digestion. So now what might have started from a simple trim on a horse's hoof could end up with nutritional imbalances, colic problems, Chronic ulcers create its own postural challenges. Chronic stress creates its own postural challenges. Maybe nerve compression, a collapsed thoracic sling because the horse can't access the muscles that it needs to because of those compensation patterns. And that can literally start a cascade effect of pathologies. And there are actually there is actually a lot of research that. connecting certain manifestations of pathology in the horse's body and limbs to hoof balance. So I don't know if you're aware that, for example... A negative plantar angle in the hind foot pedal bone, where we've got the negative rotation that I mentioned earlier, and a broken baculopaston axis is actually associated with an increased incidence of lameness, specifically in the proximal suspensory apparatus beneath the hocks, the hocks themselves, the stifles, the SI joint, and it's even connected to muscle pain in the hind quarters. and actually a manifestation of inflammation anywhere along what's called the superficial dorsal myofascial line, which runs from the horse's pedal bone in the hind foot, up the back of the limb, across the hind quarters, all the way down the spine, up the neck, into the horse's pole, impacting even the TMJ.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:38:53-00:39:00]
Sorry, can you... What was it again that causes all this with the pedal bone, I think you said? Could you just repeat that?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:01-00:40:52]
Yeah, so a negative plantar angle, when we talk about plantar versus palmar, yeah, so the front hoof, plantar is the hind foot. So when we're talking about negative plantar angle, it's sometimes called NPA or NPAS, negative plantar angle syndrome. It should be N-P-L-A, plantar. So, yeah, so that's when the pedal bone, instead of sitting in a positive angle with a straight hoof past the naxus, we've actually got the pedal bone sitting on the ground in a negative rotated aspect. And it's actually more common than people give credit to. And the biggest challenge in all of this is. If we have a negative plantar angle in a front foot, typically that manifests with lameness in the digit itself, typically in and around the coffin joint, maybe the pedal bone, pedal osteitis, maybe navicular syndrome, maybe something with the collateral ligaments and maybe even in the joints above the coffin joint. However, in a hind foot, the manifestation of lameness occurs above the limb. So what's happening is horses are going being referred for a secondary pathology anywhere from kissing spines through to suspensory proximal suspensory apparatus problems. And then those are being treated, but not all vets are recognising that, of course, it's connected to the actual foot balance itself. Yeah. I have literally consulted on horses that have gone to the best veterinary centres in the UK that have come home with a treatment plan after having injections in the hocks, the stifles and what have you, where the foot balance itself has been completely ignored.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:53-00:40:53]
Hmm.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:54-00:40:55]
And they've never even done x-rays.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:57-00:41:17]
That's my next question here. So when we look at like hoof radiographs, is this something that you feel should be done more often? Is this something that you think can help with further diagnosis and a more in-depth treatment plan? What are your thoughts on hoof radiographs and how often people get them done?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:19-00:45:10]
I think it's a it depends question so if if a horse has come to me with a lot of challenges which is usually the case then I think hoof x-rays can be invaluable in terms of diagnostically relevance so looking for pathology in the digit itself that's obviously down to the vet but also looking in terms of of balance what's actually going on in the lower limb which could lead us to choose a particular intervention, be that a reductive trimming intervention or an additive. Are we going to work with a farrier and add a shoe or are we going to try with a boot and do regular trimming to try and effectively improve the balance? So that can confirm the position of the pedal bones in terms of balance. And do we have even sole depth? What is it that we need to actually work with here? That said... And in terms of kind of routine, I think I'm fairly confident in my understanding of the way that I objectively assess hooves. And if everything's fine, the behavior, the physiological parameters and the posture, then why would we need an x-ray? it would be an unnecessary expense. But that's so rare, isn't it? Let's face it, we wouldn't even be having the conversation about x-rays. But most horses don't have that manifestation. They don't have ideal posture and ideal hoof morphology and ideal balance. So when should we be getting x-rays? So again, we don't typically x-ray healthy, sound horses, but Either we should in horses that don't have ideal conditions or ideal conditions, parameters ideal signs of of optimum welfare perhaps we should be x-raying those on a regular basis even once a year to just go where are we now do we have signs of wear and tear you know do we need to focus in more on the hoof health do we need to change what we're doing with this horse in order to improve welfare so that could be really useful if we want to get really detailed and we And again, that rarely happens. It's usually a reactive response to a problem when we actually spend money on x-rays. And that's the thing. I mean, some of this goes down to availability and how accessible are x-rays. I mean, most veterinary practices have got a mobile x-ray unit, or if not, we can trailer a horse to a facility and get x-rays done. But Yeah, it tends to be a little late in terms of being proactive and preventative. So if we're working in a horse in rehab, I would say definitely get them at the start and then, you know, get them so far in to assess where we've come to and if or not we are making progress. If there's any doubt from the external parameters or the assessment that we aren't making progress, I think that they should then be done on a regular basis as a tool to really hone in on the horse's balance and see if progress is being made. That said, external assessment can be fairly accurate in terms of understanding where the bony column is in relation to the hoof capsule, both in terms of proximal distal, but also medial, lateral and dorsal palmar. So we can get a good 3D vision externally with a very educated eye. However, we're not all on the same level of understanding. So, yeah, get x-rays.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:45:11-00:45:20]
With that being said, with the external experience eye and that looking at the hoof, can you explain what a hoof score is?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:45:21-00:47:19]
Yeah. So the whole concept of hoof scoring was introduced to me by my first trimming mentor, which was Casey Lapierre. And what he did is he taught us to evaluate the individual structures of And then based on applied equine podiatry's understanding of what was healthy versus what was unhealthy, we would then rate those structures and bring an overall score for that horse. And then also in relation to that horse's age. So a horse that was five years old, for example, still isn't mature, fully mature. So we weren't going to give that horse more than a five out of 10 to protect that horse from excess podiatry. wear and tear and excess load but I adopted the scoring system and added in other parameters so I would look at the horse's posture and what that might tell me as well as development of the horse and my own understanding of what is healthy hoof morphology and tissues and usability of a horse so I've adapted that into my own scoring system, which is my way of objectively assessing welfare. So, again, behavioural, postural, physiological parameters. And that score is used to help guide and honour, again, in terms of use of the horse. So we don't overuse and overstimulate or overload the horse in any part of the horse, you know, be it the foot or the body, the whole horse. And then we would also use that as a guide to assess if we're making progress and what intervention we might need. So it's kind of a welfare score that I would use to help proactively take care of horses, to help with objective assessment and identification of interventions, but also to track changes.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:21-00:48:22]
So this might be a bit of a nuanced question or a nuanced answer. Based on that, so since there can be such a differentiation in the hoof score, like you said, for how much stimulation the horse's hooves or body or mind or anything like that should be having, we have to look at the owner's participation in a lot of this, right? Because, I mean, they're the ones that see the horse every single day. They're the ones that are doing the majority of the things with the horse. You can bring the professionals in, but they're, you know, maybe only there every four to six to eight weeks, right? What do you recommend for general hoof maintenance? And again, this is a bit of a nuanced question depending on the score that the hoof or the horse may have received. But things like routines, products, exercises, things like that for, we'll say, somebody on the mid to higher scale of a hoof score.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:48:23-00:54:40]
Cool. So let's call it a five. It's capable of performing under saddle at a sort of low leisure rider level of workload for an adult horse. So my sort of recommendations are to continue to maintain healthy hoof morphology. So if we've got a horse that's a five, we've got balanced proportions. We've got equilibrium. We've got balance. what I consider to have a healthy hoof morphology with balance. So that hoof is going to wear and grow evenly front to back. So why not use the horse's environment to encourage a healthy amount of wear on that horse's hoof so that we aren't trimming a load off every five weeks or every appointment. So it might be that I will recommend that they do some activity on abrasive surfaces according to that horse's hoof score. And that I might even encourage owners to document the horse's hoof on a regular basis, which with a little training is actually very, very easy to do because everyone's got a smartphone. So if you're sort of changing what you're doing with your horse and you want to do more road work or it's, a changing season where we've got more moisture on the roads and there's going to be more abrasiveness going on then I want owners to feel empowered to make the right decisions for their horses on a day-to-day basis rather than rely on me to come back in six weeks and say oh you did too much. So I would encourage owners to do their own objective assessment of their horse. And a really fun thing to do is to take a picture of your horse before and after exercise and see if we've actually got improved posture, which really we should, shouldn't we? Yeah, absolutely. If we've got a horse that's kind of like, oh, downhill and looking a little bit out of balance after exercise, then there's a really good chance that we just did too much. So I think, you know, And again, how often we would document the horse's hoof and do a little markup to check if we're on the right track will be dependent on the individual situation. But that's something that I feel should be a part of everyday hoof care. And then, of course, to help stimulate the horse's tissues in the foot and in the whole body, I think, again, going back to the average hoof score, we should be looking at stimulating those tissues through working the horse on a variety of surfaces. So a conforming surface is really good. for getting some stimulus up into the collateral grooves, which is the commages of the frog, and sort of stimulate all of the areas that don't get stimulated, say, for example, the same way on a tarmac road. So we might want to do some work on turf or a menage to get that kind of a stimulus going. We might want to do some hill work, some gentle hill work, and maybe even some undulating tarmac So maybe some stones or some surface that moves a little bit underneath the hoof so that we're getting sort of different stresses coming in that are challenging the range of motion of the joints themselves, but without overtaxing them. And that's obviously going to be more pertinent if we're heading towards a particular event or a competition. So we want to be mindful of preparation for key events in that horse's life that we might be involved with. the lifestyle of the horse. Let's use the horse's time that it spends by itself to help stimulate health, not just physically in terms of how the hoof is stimulated, but the mental capacity of the horse. And all the while looking at the horse's neuromuscular health and the autonomic nervous system. So again, going back to those five domains, Do we have correct environmental stimulus? Do we have the opportunity to express natural behaviour? What is the herd like? What's the nervous system of the herd? How is this horse regulating in the time that the horse isn't with us? And conversely, How is the horse interacting with the human? Is the human well regulated? So all of these factors are driving hoof health. So it might sound a little bit odd to answer the question from that perspective. But, yeah, we could talk about products to put on the horse's hoof and all of that. But actually, the autonomic nervous system, which is really key in getting nutrition in and out of the hoof and in promoting healthy movement is key. So I might, with a particular horse in a particular environment, say, OK, your maintenance is going to be to incorporate scent work into your weekly activities. So can we do two or three sessions of scent work? which is giving the horse more autonomy. It's interacting with the horse in a different way where the horse is making decisions. And we're really getting the horse to use all of its senses. And it really can shift the autonomic nervous system into a different state. So now we've got freedom through movement and we've got the mind being brought into it. So for another, it might be that the owner, I might suggest that they do a little bit of heart math or a little bit of meditation with their horse once, twice, three times a week. And it might be that that's more for the horse owner than it is the horse. You know, maybe that horse actually needs assistance in regulating its nervous system. So that could be the very best thing that that owner could do to maintain hoof health. Everything always comes back to the hoof, both how the horse lands and loads, but also internally the horse's homeostasis, its metabolism and, of course, getting nutrition in and out of the horse's hoof.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:54:42-00:55:35]
I love it. I just love all of that. One of the biggest things that I feel like I hear within the industry, and I know I have in the past felt it myself, is an issue communicating with their hoof care provider. There can be a fear of offending somebody or a fear of speaking up or, you know, a miscommunication. There seems to be... quite a trend in that, that people are like, I don't know how to talk to my farrier or my farrier, you know, disregards my opinion or something like that. What is your advice for that? If somebody is listening that's struggling with being able to, you know, communicate effectively with their healthcare provider?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:35-01:04:57]
I actually wrote a blog on this just recently with a kind of 20 minute ramble on this topic and some key points. So if anybody wants to jump onto that and take a look, they're welcome to do so. I think or I feel that it's a sign of the times that this is coming up and that we're talking about it. I think we've reached a stage in our evolution where, you know, where women in particular are speaking up because a lot of the challenges I hear are between women horse owners and male farriers. And it's not all the time, of course, but this seems to be what I hear most often is And I wonder how much of that is to do with the sort of male female dance and the energy between that. And I would say I completely hear you and I've experienced it myself. So before I became a full time hoof care professional, I had a farrier and I had problems with my horses. I'm still dealing with 20 years on. And I had questions about their hoof care. And I've asked him from trimming them from foals. And I shared my concerns. And I've never really been satisfied with the answers. It was always, that's the way it is. It's just like that. And I'm like, oh, that's not really enough for me. So even then, I was a bit of a nerd when it came to looking at things that were outside of my remit as a rider, trainer, rehabber, body worker, which is what I was. And eventually I had a second opinion from a barefoot trimmer because I was just getting nowhere. And the barefoot trimmer came out and was like, look, these are problems. This is like bad. pre or low grade laminitis it's a five-year-old cob the other one was a five-year-old thoroughbred I'd already had x-rays and a diagnosis of pedulocysis and remedial shoeing was I mean why was a horse that's five-year-old having remedial shoeing in the first place that's what blew my mind and I had problems with every single horse and this was my rehab livery advanced farrier So it was a big thing for me to approach him and say, look, we've had a long history together, but I'm just not happy about these things. And I had a conversation over the phone because I had to make a decision. And I said, look, do you want to be there when this person's here? You know, this is going to happen regardless, but I'd like for you to be involved in the process. And his response to that was, because you're such a nice person and you fed me bacon butties every time I've come, and you've been a very good customer. I will come back when you find that this fails, but I will have to charge you double in order to fix the problems that they're going to cause. And when I asked for evidence for the basis of his concerns, he couldn't provide any. Like, how do you know that this is going to happen? And he couldn't give me a satisfying answer to that. So I had really no option but to kind of continue. Well, I did have an option. I could have ignored the barefoot trimmer's advice and just gone along with what we were doing. But I had a strong feeling that would have been a tragedy. And we'd already lost horses. I'm not saying it's this person's fault, but we'd lost horses. And I think looking back, the foot care was a part of it. Just a part of it. So I got off the phone and just started crying. I was just so upset that a person that I thought I had a really good professional working relationship with would treat me like that and would say those things. And I was just gutted. I was scared as well. I was really scared. I felt very much on a limb. So I can appreciate the concerns that a fellow horse owner might have or even an equine professional might. Of course, the horses didn't get worse. They didn't do as well as they could have done because I've since changed the way in which I approach hoof care. And I do believe it's a much more improved version of my former professional hoof care self. But somewhere along this journey, I was prompted to take a look at my approach. And I had a similar conversation with a horse owner. And I'm really grateful for that individual in being a catalyst in my personal and professional journey, because what she did was highlight another method that had the potential to create better welfare conditions. It wasn't phrased like that, but now looking back, that's what it did. It improved the welfare of the animals I worked with. And at first I did the usual, oh no, you know, the ego left brain, of course, wants to fight back and defend and protect and be right. That's the job of a left brain, isn't it? The critical thinking program leader. So I was like, no, no, no, this way is the best, blah, blah, blah. But because we'd We had a good relationship. We were both open and vulnerable with one another. And we were both on and still are on our own spiritual journey. We had the capacity to listen to each other. And I took on board her concerns and I looked at the evidence in front of me because I was a documenter. Evidence was my thing even back then. And I was like, wow, there is something about this that really feels better than what it was that I was doing. So my right brain kicked in. It was like, no, you have to look at this. This is like the creative, compassionate, connected with source energy, whatever you want to call it. This is the part of our brain that we get that spark of creativity from. And I was like, yeah, let's go for it. Let's try it. And I completely threw myself into it. questioning everything that I'd ever known about hoof care and I've come out of it still questioning everything I've ever known about hoof care but I'm just hungry for more and more information I'm flying off to America in a couple of months to train with who I believe is just one of the best equine podiatrists and farriers in the world because she has her own x-ray machine and she has a database of 750,000 x-rays and hoof photographs and I'm like yeah I need to keep learning even though I'm not a farrier I need to learn about shoes and about everything. So, yeah, so the long and the short of it is be compassionate. Have compassion for the situation, which is hard. It's hard to hold space for yourself, for your horse, for your family, your peers and the professional in front of you. But it's not impossible. Have compassion for the situation. Be honest. Be vulnerable. Share your concerns. And it's probably useful to make it as objective as possible. So why don't we bring it back to the evidence in front of us? What can the horse tell us about the horse's experience? So rather than Joe Bloggs on the Internet says that my hoof balance is crap. Let's get some evidence of the actual hoof balance and form a conversation around the evidence, not just the hoof, of course, but any other physiological parameters, postural parameters and behavioural things that the horse might share with us. So I think that really is the best that you can do. And do it not by messaging. Do it face to face or on the phone. I think there's so much can be lost in translation, in messaging. Yeah, it's a bit awkward. It's a bit uncomfortable. But this is how we grow as human beings. It's the minutia of us. Our evolution is found within relationships. So if we can just be brave, step outside our comfort zone and be kind, be compassionate and be appreciative of all opinions and listen, listen. But above all else, advocate for your horse. Advocate for your horse. And if the conversation turns nasty or aggressive, remove yourself. Have some healthy boundaries in place. If it does turn into a conflicting, uncomfortable situation, remove yourself from it. Not everybody is ready to change what it is that they do or to even question what it is that they do, even when faced with evidence that it may provide something better welfare conditions for a horse. But you never know who's ready for that and what that other person might share with you in terms of an idea that they've had that they maybe didn't feel comfortable expressing before this conversation that actually could take your horse to a whole new level too. So it could be a really rewarding conversation. And in any event, it's going to help us evolve no matter what the outcome. But I think have a positive mindset, visualize a positive outcome, take the personal out of it, make it about the objective assessment of the horse and be kind.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:58-01:06:50]
Absolutely. I love that advice. One of the things that has been really important to me with this podcast is the empowerment of horse owners and therefore the empowerment of their horses. And And I think it's because there's like this quote that I've seen that's like you become the person that your younger self wished you like they had or they had resource to. And even if that younger version of myself was like a two year ago person, like it wasn't that far away ago. It was still, you know, not too far in the past. It's still that thing where I look at it and I think, gosh, like, If if I only knew more and not to hold that against that version of myself, but just to say, you know, the more you know, the more you can do better. And that's exactly what has been my my goal or my aim with this podcast is to be able to empower the horse owner so that they can have those, you know, those informed conversations and make those objective decisions or. Or whatever it may be for themselves and the horses. And that's exactly what this conversation with you has been as well, Becky. It's been an empowering conversation to say, hey, here's more information for you to have. To go out and look at your horses from a holistic perspective. To have that compassionate and objective and educated discussion. To... Do better within the industry and for our horses. And I just I just want to thank you for coming on here and for resourcing us all with with everything that you've provided us in the past hour.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:51-01:06:52]
You're welcome. That's my aim.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:53-01:07:05]
Yeah. We have four rapid fire questions as we wrap up that we ask every podcast guest. And so it's just the first thing that pops into your mind. Do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:07-01:07:09]
Trim horses, not hooves.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:11-01:07:16]
That's good. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:18-01:07:24]
Too many to list. The most influential being is a horse called Son. She showed me the way. She showed me the way.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:24-01:07:30]
Yeah. If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:31-01:07:35]
Be compassionate. Be a model of compassion.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:37-01:07:41]
And the last one, please complete this sentence. For me, horses are.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:41-01:07:53]
For me, horses are. A mirror. Of the collective consciousness of humanity.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:55-01:08:16]
Yeah. Oh, I got shelter on that one. We're going to put everything in the show notes, of course. So I'll be linking your website. I'll also link your Facebook because there's a ton of information on your Facebook page. Is there anywhere else that you'd like me to link or anywhere else that you can let everybody know where to find you, how to connect with you?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:17-01:08:25]
That's basically it. Facebook and my website. You can always contact me on either of those privately or through the website. There's only me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:28-01:08:40]
Becky, thank you again so much for being here and for just really, really giving us such an informed discussion and conversation around this very big topic. So thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:41-01:08:50]
Thank you for the opportunity to share a little bit of all of this and the opportunity to connect with you and with all of your people, too.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:52-01:09:26]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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